Harrows Darts.

Buying Darts - You guys don't know how good you have it !
Greetings fellow Nutz,
I haven't had a rant for a while so I thought I'd have one now.
I have been looking for a set of darts that actually work with my throw for ages.
I've tried many brands and styles and I thought that I "NEEDED" a front loaded dart.
So I started looking. my search for the Holy grail finished with me shaking my head. 
As an Australian Dart Player I started in the late 70s we had the luxury of our own small local Dart shop in Sydney's West.
It was reasonably priced, and he had a LOAD of different darts in many weights and styles plus a heap of accessories, and had a testing board.
The guy eventually sold out when his little arcade was redeveloped - he disappeared forever. I stopped playing when my kids were born and 30 years later I have started playing again in a league with my Son.
When he showed interest in playing I bought him a set of 25g Target Vapour8s but he soon wanted something "better".
I had been buying from UK vendors even whilst I was "retired" (on Hiatus) and had a few favorites. 
My son on the other hand had been told of a local online Store that did a heap of brands.
We compared notes and quickly worked out something wasn't right. 
The prices down here are horrendous I'm pretty sure there is an illusion by wholesalers that they can charge what the market will pay and the retailers think that they can do as they please as well. here's a classic example of WHY I buy from the UK -

Pentathlon Darts - TDP Series - T5 - 90% Steel Tip Tungsten 22g
DC Price - $AU35.44 + $AU4.26 post
Aus Seller - $AU69.55 + $AU7.50 post
Even if we were charged AU VAT on import I'd still buy from DC or Madhouse in a pinch.


We compared other items 36mm Fire points AU$10.45 UK Price $7.04 and it goes on and on.
I have a background in Spare parts so I understand the intricacy of Importing and the associated costs involved.
I organised around 3 sets of darts + flights and shafts for my fellow team members early this year and got the freight spread to about 5 cents per $1 spent. So why, if a simple man like me can do it can't a business look at their costs and do a little for the game.

So disappointed in the way we are ripped off on Australia I am always hesitant to spend my money here.
This will probably tick a lot of Aussies off, but I love the game why aren't we getting a better deal ?
Local retail in general is crying poor about people buying on line, wait till Amazon hits here. Maybe they should take a hard look at themselves.
You guys in the UK don't know how good you have it.
League Darts: 
Dynasty HOT Fuzz 25g, Target Power Shafts Short, Power Kite Flights.
BOARD: Unicorn Eclipse HD

2020 Formal 180s - 6
2020 Best Leg played - Dont recall
2020 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142, 124, 120
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Not only in Australia mate, even in the Netherlands right across the pond some shops are asking ridiculous prices for some darts. Unicorn, Winmau and Harrows seem to be affected the most. For example a set of Unicorn Supertrue's are €62 at DC and one of the biggest Dutch shops is asking €110 for them?!?
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I'm from Aust too so know your pain!

The question I think needs answering is what does it cost the local suppliers to get into their shop. Comparatively darts equipment has come down in price since I first picked up a set in the 90's. But I reckon the UK suppliers buy from the manufacturers for less. I even think that some of our local suppliers buy off the same UK suppliers we do. They wouldn't be getting a discount big enough to price match. The landed cost might only be 20%-30% off UK retail. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacturer's treat them a lot differently too, if, they deal direct with the manufacturer at all
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Same can be said for USA Dart stores/websites as well. I would estimate 30% to 50% higher in price than the UK (mainly Darts Corner).
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DAYTONA FIRE JP-01JP-02, DF-10, DF-11 & DF-01
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Same inflated prices with domestic dart shops in Canada Fizban.. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
 

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Match Darts=Target Darryl Fitton,s® 22g

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Cheers,
 Ken 
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(11-08-2017, 03:13 AM)Spencerdl Wrote: Same can be said for USA Dart stores/websites as well. I would estimate 30% to 50% higher in price than the UK (mainly Darts Corner).

Its ridiculous, to save money I have been waiting the extended time period to order from DC usually waiting till I have a good amount in the basket to make it worthwhile. Its a pain in the a$$
Bottelsen GG Hammerheads 25 gram, laser etched fixed point tips, punched Sininster Flights 
Piranha 22gram with 32mm laser etched tips, punched Pentathlon Flights
Target PT Power 8Zero BT 24gram, Unicorn Supertrue flights 
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(11-08-2017, 04:46 AM)Dubz1387 Wrote:
(11-08-2017, 03:13 AM)Spencerdl Wrote: Same can be said for USA Dart stores/websites as well. I would estimate 30% to 50% higher in price than the UK (mainly Darts Corner).

Its ridiculous, to save money I have been waiting the extended time period to order from DC usually waiting till I have a good amount in the basket to make it worthwhile. Its a pain in the a$$

Yes, same here. I dislike the mailing wait time, but I like the prices. So I guess this is the best "Bang for the Buck"
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DAYTONA FIRE JP-01JP-02, DF-10, DF-11 & DF-01
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Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
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Some UK manufacturers and many UK retailers read the forums and FB pages guys.

Perhaps you shouldn't be talking about this openly - they might start getting crafty ideas! 

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BTW, there is an old saying which is very true:

Cheap and Good = Not Fast
Good and Fast = Not Cheap
Cheap and Fast = Inferior (especially in terms of workmanship, like say a contracting job, or product development. Sometimes Expensive and Fast also equals Inferior quality.) 

You can't have everything unless you are willing to pay, except for the last option, which is the worst.
NATURAL DARTS? https://www.dartsnutz.net/forum/showthre...?tid=22147

A beginner - always experimenting and learning. Lol! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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As a guy, who buys plenty of darts from the UK ever year. I fear the day they leave the EU without a trade deal, that is going to be funny for us european guys.

(11-08-2017, 01:36 AM)joeriw96 Wrote: Not only in Australia mate, even in the Netherlands right across the pond some shops are asking ridiculous prices for some darts. Unicorn, Winmau and Harrows seem to be affected the most. For example a set of Unicorn Supertrue's are €62 at DC and one of the biggest Dutch shops is asking €110 for them?!?


This remind me of the german shop, who is selling Unicorn Evolution Phase 5 Rosso for 150€
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Winmau - Andy Fordham SE
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My favorite example of U.S. retail-based screwing of dart players is comparing Pure Shot Arsonist from Dart Brokers to Tommy's Winners at Pure Darts. These are the same darts, of course. We could use any of the weights for comparison - I've opted to use one of the sets I actually have, the 26g model (not that anyone cares, but I also have a set of the 25s). The links above show the entire range so that you can see they're all the same, the links below compare the 26s.

Pure Shot Arsonist: $65.20, BARRELS ONLY, "on sale" from $81.50.

Tommy's Winners: $14.04, WITH STEMS, FLIGHTS AND A BAR WALLET. 

So for the cost of one barrels-only set from Dart Brokers, you could get four sets, 12 stems, 12 flights and four bar wallets from Pure and still have enough left over to cover the shipping! With Dart Brokers, not only is the price a raging case of retail sodomy, but free shipping doesn't start until you hit $75!

Look, I know markup is unavoidable, these USA shops couldn't stay in business selling at cost, but THIS? 

Why can't we produce PDC players? Probably because the country would rather play cricket than 501. But why do so few per capita own a tungsten set and play with it regularly? Because you have to mortgage your (expletive deleted) house to buy one. When I go into bars to throw, over half the folks who bring their own sets use brass or those nickel silver sets (I've seen a surprising number of Bristow Silver Arrows), which over here usually still costs more than one set of Tommy's Winners would. 

At least the rare store like A-Z tries. You can get a set of Paul Nicholsons for $46, which isn't bad and comes with free shipping because it crosses their $45 threshold for free shipping. That's maybe ten bucks over what DC charges, and if you pay for speed shipping it's going to cost you $46 total anyway. Or you can get a set of one of Pure's least expensive 90% tungsten darts for $65.20 - again, "on sale" from $81.50 - from Dart Brokers. 

Also, if you scroll down from the first Dart Brokers link I posted, you'll see "Pure Shot Lethal Weapon" - those are Nodor 600 Series (Red Dragon calls them Flightmasters, A180 calls them Nodor Glidemasters, DC calls them Designa Crusaders, you've all seen them, most of you have probably had a set, I know I do, they're 80% and 12-14 quid each even WITH VAT in the UK) for that same "bargain" price of $65.20.

"Buy American?" Nope, not in this case. It's one thing to support the stateside economy, it's another to take a red-hot poker up the backside from people just drooling at the thought of ripping you off. Dart Brokers is the only store that I've ever seen carry Los Angeles Rams flights, but I hate that ripoff joint so much I wouldn't order any if they were 50 cents a set (and they weren't, they were $3.00 apiece, as one would expect from them).

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(11-08-2017, 01:36 AM)joeriw96 Wrote: Not only in Australia mate, even in the Netherlands right across the pond some shops are asking ridiculous prices for some darts. Unicorn, Winmau and Harrows seem to be affected the most. For example a set of Unicorn Supertrue's are €62 at DC and one of the biggest Dutch shops is asking €110 for them?!?

 Same for France as well the few outlets have very limited stock & horrendous prices
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Amen to that Fizban. Great rant too. Keep them coming Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images..

UK all the way for me too. It's no contest, especially when the Dollar is strong against the Pound. I still support my local bricks and mortar darts/billiards store as I'd hate to see them fold (I buy bugger all from them but it still equates to me being a good customer and they give me 20% off).

Aussie online stores can't/choose not to compete.
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Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
League Darts: 
Dynasty HOT Fuzz 25g, Target Power Shafts Short, Power Kite Flights.
BOARD: Unicorn Eclipse HD

2020 Formal 180s - 6
2020 Best Leg played - Dont recall
2020 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142, 124, 120
Reply
(12-08-2017, 12:29 AM)Fizban Wrote: Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Where you stated

Quote:I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
You need to keep in mind that the business buying from the UK would have to pay import fees, + GST etc on top of the prices and where you buy 6 sets of flights for example, they probably have to buy 30-50 sets of the flights and keep multiple ranges of flights, shafts etc, so it is quite a lot of sometimes slow selling items to keep tied up in stock and stock = cash tied up.

Darts is a very small market out here, you talk like you know what you are doing and with due respect, you may well have that experience. But if that is the case, why is there only a very small number of dedicated dart shops in Australia? I would guess in say probably under 5 DEDICATED shops..... the rest are general shops that have some darting products. If you have that experience and skill I just wonder why no one else has, which leads me to believe that there is more to the issue than you know.

I used to own dartshop.com(au) up until 2 years ago, i did so from roughly 2002. I focused on Winmau because they were a very good brand and one that I could get easily. Now....everyone including the cornerstore sells Winmau, prices on ebay equate to costs plus around $5 profit per set. It just isn't worth touching them at all.

Dealers for certain LEADING brands and i can name 4-5, are very hard to deal with out here. I wont begin an issue by naming them, but we could not buy WHOLESALE out here, even 20% of the range the brand had on sale in the UK. They import very few of the lines that are available in the UK.

After 16 years I now deal with one brand and one brand only, that being Datadart and we are beginning to make roads in wholesaling out here. It takes time, because although Datadart have been heard of, because the brand has rarely been seen out here in Australia, they are harder to market. Having said that, we are enjoying great feedback and reviews so over time, we will succeed and we are doing so at very competitive prices.

Well i have probably ruffled enough feathers so i will make one more statement and it may surprise you. The Dart Shop I mentioned I owned was turning over roughly $280K per annum and of that, $200K would be to the very social player and NOT serious competition players. Mom & dad would buy a decent dartboard for at home, or a dartboard package, etc.....the comp players always wanted to haggle about paying 40c more for a set of flights than in the UK and are constantly looking to save every cent and change shops the minute they can save 10c. There is little loyalty. They are in fact their own worst enemy because the lack of loyalty makes it very hard for a dedicated Dart Shop to survive.

My Dad taught me many things and one of them was always spot on. "Why work hard and not make money?" I can do nothing and go bust so no sense working hard and going bust. The financial exposure of holding stock out here is very high.

This situation will not change much until people buying sets overseas are forced to pay the same import fees, the GST etc that the small importers and dart shops have to pay....because until then, yes, you can probably buy them from the UK 20% less than we get them from the wholesalers here.

Take my word on this or speak to some of the people that operate dart shops out here. I could post some wholesale price lists from leading Brands to substantiate my claims, and i could do so if any of these major companies post and wish to challenge my honesty, or wish me to verify my claims. But what am i going to achieve?

It is a very difficult market. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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