Harrows Darts.

Noobie player with issues not found in forums
Hey guys, I've looked through every forum here and read everything trying to find possible answers to my problem. Hopefully y'all can give me an answer or some suggestions that will help. 

So I just started playing a little over a year ago with steel tip. Got into soft tip driving through Houston one weekend, which is all that they had there, about 2-3 months after starting and enjoyed it just as much. I picked up the sport very quickly and after 6 months of playing I was at a 21.8 PPD and a 2.7 MPR on steel and almost 30 PPD and a 3.2 MPR on soft tip. Well a few months ago I hit my first slump that everyone around me warned me about would eventually happen but have slowly managed to crawl my way out of it. My steel tip game has picked up above where it was before but I have started playing more soft tip due to the steel tip scene in my town (which sadly is all that we have so having to drive an hour a couple times a week to play) diminishing to nothing. Well before the slump all I had to do was swap out my titanium conversion tips for my soft points and that was it. I have a flat deliberate throw with virtually zero arc but with the titanium points on, my darts naturally tilt down at the last minute exactly at the angle I wanted them and they still do and with the soft points it would just stay flat the whole way to the board. I will also say that I naturally put a LOT of counter clockwise spin on the darts at release. I tried to change it when I first started playing because people around me told me that wasn't supposed to happen but I can not grip any dart and throw with without that happening, and to be honest I'd rather not change that in any case. Well now when I swap to soft tip my darts are doing it now also and it's causing my darts to 1- not stick in the board which I deliberately aim at my darts to hit what I want if I do so to begin with. 2- it's not the same as when I put the conversion points on and it's consistent, with the soft points in it will be perfect one throw and then minor the next and then kamikaze dive 3 inches straight down at the last minute on one of them. So there no way for me to just adjust for it.  

I have been video'd with slow-mo cameras throwing both with both my soft and steel points in at my bristle board and even to make sure that it wasn't mental, I even went as far and blind folding myself to where I mixed my darts with different tips in my hand and threw them with the camera going. There is no difference what so ever in my release movements or anything. And yes I have honestly taken it this far because I have minor almost OCD tendencies where I can't stand not know why something is occurring that I can't explain or control that I should be able to. Reason I'm hear begging for yalls help. Haha. 

Anyways now that the whole crappy story is out of the way with the issue. I've noticed watching my darts hit the board when I'm throwing and confirming what I see behind the dart with what we got on camera that I have started putting a little more force that I didn't pre-slump which is coming from me flipping my wrist faster at release. Follow through, stroke, timing and tempo side by side was the same just the wrist is movement is faster. When I watch the flight of the dart when I throw, the flight itself (as stupid as its sounds and I know y'all think I'm insane but it's ok) is steady but to me it looks like it's causing too much drag watching it from behind when I throw which, couldn't be me wanting that to be the problem. Didn't know if that is a thing or if I'm causing that with the spin that I naturally apply? 

Currently using 16.5gm AccurateDart Evolutions with medi Harrows Clics and Target Pixel soft points. Same set up for steel just using 30mm Target titanium pro grooved points. 

I know that the harrows clic flights are really thick which is why I'm afraid maybe that the issue causing that hardcore last minute dive after reading through some of the forums. A couple people had said that with a faster more deliberate throw that smaller flights would be more beneficial. I'm looking to make an order to A-Z today or tomorrow so that everything will be here before bullshooter next weekend but don't know what to order or what to avoid if I do. I've used only harrows for most of my short darting career since I didn't destroy them like the fit flights but they don't make anything but standards. I've gone to academy and bought some cheap flights and put em on nylon shafts I keep around and I can throw the small standards and kites well and that seems to be eliminating the diving but I can't control the speed and pear flights which brings up my first question of do y'all think that I might have the same issue occur buying the L-Style flights and shafts since I'll be picking up more thickness compared to the cheap paper flights or do y'all any other suggestions I should order and try besides that? I'm just really getting frustrated with this and nothing on the internet gives you any breakdown of what to expect out of each flight design. Lol. Any help, recommendations, or verbal abuse that y'all can give would be greatly appreciated. 


Also just because if I'm going to place an order anyways I was going to pick up some more tips but wanted to try some other tips out besides just the ones I currently use. What would y'all say is better for longer and short length points between L-Style, Cosmo and whoever else is out there? I'm just going to order a pack of shorts and longer lengths so that I can try to make the dart balanced a little more in the end of tuning if necessary. 

Thanks again in advance everyone!
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It's taken me multiple returns to this thread to find the motivation to read that whole post!

But... I did it.


First things first... welcome to the forum... mighty girthy first post we have here.....



Shape of the flight generally has much more impact than the weight of the flight. The more surface area, the more lift you should get. Personally it doesn't matter what shape of flight I throw, or what length of stem, they all stick in the board almost exactly the same... tail up.

L-Style are a bit thinner than the standard Fit flights, but thicker that the Fit AIR.

Many pros have crazy snappy throws (look at Bunting) yet use standard flights. I think it's all what you are used to. I personally love pear/teardrop, but I can't find L-Style teardrop with cool designs on them... and I'm an idiot like that... so I use L-Style "shape" which is slightly smaller than standard.

Best bet is to try a few different shapes, and a few different shafts lengths... you'll figure it out!

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Welcome to the forum,,,,Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. Ultimately you will be the one that figures out what works for you ,,, I also throw light soft tip darts ,,, and I think you can throw to hard for you own good ,,,, I know when I start trying to throw more direct at the target with more speed,,,then I will have a tendency to spray the darts all over the board ,,, Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.


Enjoy,,,Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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Honestly been reading through every post I thought would have something of value with this but nothing really clicked. Lol guess I can say I made splash with my first post at least. To be honest after going through the slump I did where I honestly began to hate darts but knew I just had to work through it I'm more afraid of getting something and trying it and causing hurting the progress back you know. lol I don't wanna deal with that again for a while if possible. But apparently I'll have a few pop up throughout playing randomly is what I'm being told. Although do the fit flights hold up any better than they did a year ago? I had massive issues with shredding them and the shafts snapping on bounce outs. Didn't know if they've done any redisigns or not.
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(12-29-2016, 08:07 PM)RoidRage92 Wrote: Honestly been reading through every post I thought would have something of value with this but nothing really clicked. Lol guess I can say I made splash with my first post at least. To be honest after going through the slump I did where I honestly began to hate darts but knew I just had to work through it I'm more afraid of getting something and trying it and causing hurting the progress back you know. lol I don't wanna deal with that again for a while if possible. But apparently I'll have a few pop up throughout playing randomly is what I'm being told. Although do the fit flights hold up any better than they did a year ago? I had massive issues with shredding them and the shafts snapping on bounce outs. Didn't know if they've done any redisigns or not.

All depends which fit flights you are talking about?

I never had any issues with damage to the normal Fit... but I have ripped my fair share of the Air ones.

I very much prefer L-Style though now.  The only time I have even needed to change flights since going to L-Style was when I was bored with the picture or colour....

If you use L-Style shafts, you will see there is another little ridge where the flights sit that protect the flights even more.

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Hello and welcome aboard! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Wow I think you have made the longest intro post ever lol

But sounds like you have a very unique problem. I tend to naturally spin the darts but I try to avoid doing it if possible because I think the spin causes too much drag and by the time my dart get to the board if its spinning a lot it usually dips.

I think you should try different shapes for sure, a kite or slim shape may suit you better Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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Me and others in my dart association have had the same issues you have with the Cosmo Fit gear stems and flights ,,, I have since stopped buying them and when my current stock runs out I will be buying more Target Spin shafts,,,, cause when they break at least they are cheap,,,, Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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I'll tell you what if you use standard flights I would put them above L-Style. They are spinners but just throw a rubber O ring on it and it stops its from the little spin you might feel in your hand but it will still move if you hit it with another dart and they will pop off saving the flights. I might go through a set every other months compared to fit flights that lasted maybe a week or 2 if I was lucky and a month I was getting out of the L-Styles. And they're about the same price. But again down side is they only make them in standards. Harrows has been talking about releasing more but I'm not holding my breath because nothing's been released on any time frames. Lol
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And I don't think I'd be this worried about getting my situation figured out asap if it wasn't for BullShooter next weekend. Gotta love the timing of life some times.
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I've never broken an L-Style flight or shaft... spinning or not. That being said I mostly use the carbon ones and don't generally use spinning anymore.

I've broken at least a half dozen Fit shafts and torn up the Fit Air flights like crazy.

What is only made in Standard? I'm confused here. L-Style and Fit both have a plethora of different shapes.

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(12-29-2016, 08:12 PM)Jugger Wrote:
(12-29-2016, 08:07 PM)RoidRage92 Wrote: Honestly been reading through every post I thought would have something of value with this but nothing really clicked. Lol guess I can say I made splash with my first post at least. To be honest after going through the slump I did where I honestly began to hate darts but knew I just had to work through it I'm more afraid of getting something and trying it and causing hurting the progress back you know. lol I don't wanna deal with that again for a while if possible. But apparently I'll have a few pop up throughout playing randomly is what I'm being told. Although do the fit flights hold up any better than they did a year ago? I had massive issues with shredding them and the shafts snapping on bounce outs. Didn't know if they've done any redisigns or not.

All depends which fit flights you are talking about?

I never had any issues with damage to the normal Fit... but I have ripped my fair share of the Air ones.

I very much prefer L-Style though now.  The only time I have even needed to change flights since going to L-Style was when I was bored with the picture or colour....

If you use L-Style shafts, you will see there is another little ridge where the flights sit that protect the flights even more.
I only used they're standard flights but I tried every type available from the air to  the regulars and all the guys at the dart shop I was getting them from said was that with my aiming at my darts in order to group them playing steel tip that that what was shredding them because they were mainly created for soft tip purposes and can't exactly handle the steel tip hitting them or a heavy dart. Which to me made since until I realized it was the same issue with soft tip because to me that's where you really use your other darts for markers. Don't know if that's the right way to play but it works for me. Im definitely learning darts is not a healthy addiction to have some times. Lol
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(12-29-2016, 08:45 PM)Jugger Wrote: I've never broken an L-Style flight or shaft... spinning or not.  That being said I mostly use the carbon ones and don't generally use spinning anymore.

I've broken at least a half dozen Fit shafts and torn up the Fit Air flights like crazy.

What is only made in Standard?  I'm confused here.  L-Style and Fit both have a plethora of different shapes.

The harrows clics are only made in standard.
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Harrows... ah yes... I have not tried them... saw nothing but trouble with them when they came out.

I've never noticed more issues with steel tip over soft when it comes to L-Style or Cosmo to be honest. In the short time I messed around with soft tip, the biggest frustration was breaking points...

Most of the problems I have had from steel tip is from bounce outs, not dart contact.

That being said, for most of my darting life (less than 3 years) I have been throwing darts 20g or lighter

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Yeah same here. Heaviest set I have is my 21gm MVGs. Although just because I'm gonna go ahead and make this order today. Anyone else that might still be looking over this posting have any info on the soft tip points? Tried seeing if anyone had done a comparison on them or if I could find anything about benefits or disadvantages of long tips to short tips. I've only used the mediums but wanted to try them unless it's just a bad idea to go a specific length. All I've heard when I ask people at tourneys is long tips break easy and short tips either don't stick or they're a pain to get out of the board. Just from reading what I could find everyone seems to go with the lipppoints or the cosmos.
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Points: I had been happy with Bulls' Tefo- X points until I found the Cosmo tips. They're about 2mm longer which I wasn't happy about but other than that Cosmo points are just awesome. I also liked the hard Evo tips but they snapped easily. Cosmo points (those sold in 50 packs) are the best points I have ever used.

Playing both steel and soft tips: I do the same. I only practice steel tips at home. I play steel tip tournaments once or twice a week while I only play soft tips on thursdays. I kind of struggle a bit with soft tips because my 20g darts seem to be too light compared to 23 - 24g steel tip ones that I usually use. Which means about 6g difference in total actually.
BTW, it is like this - players who are top in one code usually play very well also in the other. I am better in steel tips but still good enough to beat most locals in soft tips. I mean, I am not that good with my 60+ average. The others are just even worse :-)

What I noticed from your first post, you're using long titanium points. I think you would do better with 26mm ones. Plain ones, if it were up to me. I don't like the grooved ones. The longer ones more affect the balance of your dart. I see you prefer playing both codes with the same set ups but sometimes it is worth changing something. I assume you hold the barrel in the same place and therefore it is not that good to have the balance point somewhere else.

Fit flights and shafts: I use Cosmo stuff too but there is a problem I haven't found the best combo yet and it is pretty expensive to find the proper one :-) I liked the light Gear shafts with kite flights (actually, the reason I went for Cosmo over Clicks which I had had too was that Cosmo make more flight shapes). As I said, I liked the Gear shafts but have broken many of them. I have also bought two packs of Carbon Black Pearl ones but they didn't last much longer. My problem is I have quite a lot of bounce outs and it doesn't like the floor impacts no matter how thick the carpet is... I guess those who don't suffer with fall outs don't have problems with breaking any stems. I have only bought the Fit flights and can't say much about the Airs but although I have damaged a few I can't say they're bad. But it is about the angle your darts land in the dartboard. Mine land a bit Taylorish so there isn't many hits which would cause some heavy damage. Now I only use the Super Duralumin shafts but there is a problem with the weight. I was worried of bending so I went for the Normal ones. After 3 months of almost daily use there isn't absolutely any sign of bending, That tells me to taske the plunge and buy the slim ones. But there is still a question which length would be the best. I have played with 18, 24, 31 and all of them were nice. I also got a set of slim carbons at the medium length but that was probably too long.

Well, it is definitelly easier to tinker with set ups if you're not a cosmo user. For a starter you might try some kites and pears with nylon stems so that you could figure out what is the best combo.

Spinning darts: If you are a natural spinner then don't worry about it. If you're not, don't force yourself into it. I am a natural spinner. Two days ago at the tournament I somehow noticed I don't spin due to a slightly different holding dart with more fingers. I swore I had to write a "Twist it!" message on my flights :-) For me, spinning is good. BTW, CCW is probably more natural direction so don't worry about it either. Just look up some Gary Anderson slow motion videos...
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