Harrows Darts.

Need Doubles practice help
I am looking to improve my ability to make doubles.  I know practice is the main avenue to this end, no question about that, and yes I know the saying when you think you have practiced enough practice some more.  However, after reading many articles, posts, routines and games about practicing doubles I am somewhat left wondering, which method is the one to follow.

The various different practice suggestions either have you shooting 3 darts at a double once then moving on to a different double (like in flight school routines or either of Sabers doubles routines) or have you shoot at the double until you hit it X number of times and then move on to the next double, throw X number of darts at one specific double then move on, or Games like 27 which are not something I like because if you get to zero quickly the game is over or onto the minus numbers which does not help my want to practice.

There is also deliberate practice which seems to break down each movement and also have someone watch or video yourself to see if what you are doing is correct.  I could be open to this but do not know enough about the procedures for doing it correctly.
There are many more such suggested ways to improve the ability for hitting the double you want: but they all seem to be either one round and move on to the next double: or X number of darts or rounds to hit the target X number of times.  Not sure which method is the one to stick with for quality practice time.

My question is simple I have been doing routines like Sabers and flight school for over a year and yes I have improved but at a very very slow pace and seem to have not made much improvement over the last 4 to 5 months which seems like a reasonable amount of time to get better at one of the doubles anyway.

In case you are wondering I have no physical disability except that I am over 60 years old unless that is something I should consider as a factor in my slow progress.  Is there any generally accepted method that seems to work better for the just below average shooter?  I am wondering about this because I would like to either change a routine to get me over this non-productive hump which I seemed to have hit.

I don’t know if I should just start throwing at the same double until I hit it once or twice in a row before moving on to the next number or just keep going around and around hitting maybe one double each round out of the 8 doubles I shoot at.
I have been thinking about this much more because I tried the Saber doubles/bulls routine and to my surprise the bulls have improve lots more than the doubles, and maybe because I shot lots more times at that one target.  I was just thinking of setting up a practice routine with doubles and one specific double in place of the bulls so I could get more practice on that double but then thought no bull practice not a good idea.

I have given thought to many ways of changing the routine I do but I do not have the experience to know if something will actually be worst then what I am presently doing.
If you have read through this long and boring post thank you and hopefully you will have suggestions on how to setup an individual method to practice doubles too breakup the roadblock I have hit and start improving again?
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This is a doubles routine I do and have mentioned it in here a few times.   I cut up a bunch of wooden tiles similar to Scrabble tiles and numbered them from 41-100 and tossed them into a can.   I pull a tile and try to take that number out in 3 darts since all of them, except the 99, can be taken out in 2 darts.  If, for some reason, I can't take the number out, I pick another tile and attempt a new number.   I keep track of the ones I don't take out and the ones I do.  Point being to have more outs removed than missed by the end of the session.

 You don't have to go as elaborate as I did, some paper squares, a pen and a paper bag is all you need to get started.
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(03-23-2016, 11:30 PM)trekbowl300 Wrote: I am looking to improve my ability to make doubles.  I know practice is the main avenue to this end, no question about that, and yes I know the saying when you think you have practiced enough practice some more.  However, after reading many articles, posts, routines and games about practicing doubles I am somewhat left wondering, which method is the one to follow.

The various different practice suggestions either have you shooting 3 darts at a double once then moving on to a different double (like in flight school routines or either of Sabers doubles routines) or have you shoot at the double until you hit it X number of times and then move on to the next double, throw X number of darts at one specific double then move on, or Games like 27 which are not something I like because if you get to zero quickly the game is over or onto the minus numbers which does not help my want to practice.

There is also deliberate practice which seems to break down each movement and also have someone watch or video yourself to see if what you are doing is correct.  I could be open to this but do not know enough about the procedures for doing it correctly.
There are many more such suggested ways to improve the ability for hitting the double you want: but they all seem to be either one round and move on to the next double: or X number of darts or rounds to hit the target X number of times.  Not sure which method is the one to stick with for quality practice time.

My question is simple I have been doing routines like Sabers and flight school for over a year and yes I have improved but at a very very slow pace and seem to have not made much improvement over the last 4 to 5 months which seems like a reasonable amount of time to get better at one of the doubles anyway.

In case you are wondering I have no physical disability except that I am over 60 years old unless that is something I should consider as a factor in my slow progress.  Is there any generally accepted method that seems to work better for the just below average shooter?  I am wondering about this because I would like to either change a routine to get me over this non-productive hump which I seemed to have hit.

I don’t know if I should just start throwing at the same double until I hit it once or twice in a row before moving on to the next number or just keep going around and around hitting maybe one double each round out of the 8 doubles I shoot at.
I have been thinking about this much more because I tried the Saber doubles/bulls routine and to my surprise the bulls have improve lots more than the doubles, and maybe because I shot lots more times at that one target.  I was just thinking of setting up a practice routine with doubles and one specific double in place of the bulls so I could get more practice on that double but then thought no bull practice not a good idea.

I have given thought to many ways of changing the routine I do but I do not have the experience to know if something will actually be worst then what I am presently doing.
If you have read through this long and boring post thank you and hopefully you will have suggestions on how to setup an individual method to practice doubles too breakup the roadblock I have hit and start improving again?

I've got some rhetorical questions for you ...

Is it just doubles your missing i.e what's your accuracy like at hitting other target areas?

Do you miss the doubles by a big margin?

Is your grouping good?

A novel way of practicing doubles I used to do was by playing a game of 301. You start by having to hit an outer bull (25) and then start scoring BUT only using the doubles ...its good fun and after a while when your concentration level builds the rest of the board becomes out of focus. When I mastered the concept I would to challenge friends and often won Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images..

 
Sometimes its finding a fun way of approaching a challenge that makes it more interesting and gives the best results. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Good luck
Dorian
Son of Merlin

Caerleon - Wales

(Mission "KURO" M4 rear taper design- 23GmYellow Kite Shape Flights 100 micron & Solid Brass Stems)

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My father Merlin, once told me that "You should end up pointing to what you were aiming at when you've released the Dart."




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gumbo2176
Thanks for the suggestion however my problem has been hitting the double to go out.  I have practiced some 3 dart out shots but not on an everyday routine like I do for just doubles.  Maybe some of my answers to Dorian’s questions will help you to understand where I am in respect to average dart shooters.

Dorian

I expect you are now thinking or will think after reading the information below just practice more before you can expect advancement, however practice is not my concern it is more on what and how to practice that concerns me.  I understand the practice part as I learned that lesson in bowling however I was able to get instructions on how to practice well instead of just rolling a ball down the lane.  That is what I would like to learn about darts how to practice well and then I can put in the work and time. Since I am in the USA cricket is played by most people here and in order for me to play more games I picked x01 because most other teammates don't want to play those games, so now I want to improve my skill in the 01 games and the double is a major flaw in my game.

Below is the answers to your questions hopefully you can suggest something to help.

“Is it just doubles your missing i.e what's your accuracy like at hitting other target areas?

Well I am in the C division league which goes up to B and A level being the top tier.  I started playing around 3 years ago and never shot darts before that, I was and still am a bowler, and looking to become a dart shooter.  As far as accuracy goes I have been doing the flight school A1 drill for over a year now and adding in A2 a few times a week.  When I started out it took 2 and ½ hours to complete the A1 drill, now it takes a little over an hour.  What is keeping it over an hour is many times I will hit a triple instead of the fat single while getting another in the single and the 3rd dart in the number on either side.  Typical I guess for a Lower level player.  What is odd is I can hit a triple 19 easier than any double in fact that also goes for the single bull most times.  So as far as accuracy I am average to a little better sometimes in my c division league.  What this generally will mean is 2 darts will be closer than ½ inch apart or touching but the 3rd dart can be on average an inch or more away from those two.  Again that’s just an average sometimes all three touch but sometimes all three are in different numbers.

“Do you miss the doubles by a big margin?”

This is what’s getting to me I can get 2 darts on the wire and the third an inch away.  This year I was leading many games but just missing the doubles by ¼ inch or less most times.  If it went inside than I had the 20 to 5 or 16 to 1 routine, more times than I should have.  My scoring was fine considering the division I am in and probably over 92% of the time I was in the game and had chances to win but more losses were due to missing doubles then scoring problems.  So I think most doubles were missed by 1/2 inch or less some more some less on the wire.  Just thinking in the all the double in games this year I never missed getting in it may have been late for some games but I did get in only not on any one specific double if I could not hit a double in 6 darts I went to another number to get in.  The going out on a double is my major problem.

“Is your grouping good?”

This varies by the hour oh well might as well take a hit here because sometimes all 3 dart points look like they are touching and the next three are within a 3 inch circle, sometimes a bigger circle.  This seems to affect my scoring more than doubles.  I seem to get better groupings when shooting at the doubles than when trying for the triples.  So are groupings good well yes and no sometimes it also depends on the location tops are not as good as the bottom of the board.
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trekbowl300gumbo2176
Thanks for the suggestion however my problem has been hitting the double to go out.  I have practiced some 3 dart out shots but not on an everyday routine like I do for just doubles.  Maybe some of my answers to Dorian’s questions will help you to understand where I am in respect to average dart shooters.

Dorian

I expect you are now thinking or will think after reading the information below just practice more before you can expect advancement, however practice is not my concern it is more on what and how to practice that concerns me.  I understand the practice part as I learned that lesson in bowling however I was able to get instructions on how to practice well instead of just rolling a ball down the lane.  That is what I would like to learn about darts how to practice well and then I can put in the work and time. Since I am in the USA cricket is played by most people here and in order for me to play more games I picked x01 because most other teammates don't want to play those games, so now I want to improve my skill in the 01 games and the double is a major flaw in my game.

Below is the answers to your questions hopefully you can suggest something to help.

“Is it just doubles your missing i.e what's your accuracy like at hitting other target areas?

Well I am in the C division league which goes up to B and A level being the top tier.  I started playing around 3 years ago and never shot darts before that, I was and still am a bowler, and looking to become a dart shooter.  As far as accuracy goes I have been doing the flight school A1 drill for over a year now and adding in A2 a few times a week.  When I started out it took 2 and ½ hours to complete the A1 drill, now it takes a little over an hour. *What is keeping it over an hour is many times I will hit a triple instead of the fat single while getting another in the single and the 3rd dart in the number on either side.  Typical I guess for a Lower level player.  What is odd is I can hit a triple 19 easier than any double in fact that also goes for the single bull most times.  So as far as accuracy I am average to a little better sometimes in my c division league.  **What this generally will mean is 2 darts will be closer than ½ inch apart or touching but the 3rd dart can be on average an inch or more away from those two.  Again that’s just an average sometimes all three touch but sometimes all three are in different numbers.

*You're right for a relative newbie this is normal and over time your consistency will improve but it would be useful if you were able to ask an experienced player to study your action to see if there are any obvious variables in your throw. Alternatively you may wish to film your action and post it here you'll get some great and very experienced advice if you do.
Recently I noticed a player getting really annoyed with himself because regularly his last dart was way off the first two. As an observer I was able to point out to him that as he released his last dart his heel on his back foot always lifted about 1/2" off the floor for which he was very grateful and had absolutely no idea it was happening Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

** As mentioned above but in addition also think about your action in some detail and make sure your grip position is the same for each dart, that your elbow is the only pivot point and your wrist remains locked etc. You need to be self-conscious of any change you make between darts and eliminate variables so maybe slow down your throw a little to assist yourself with this.


“Do you miss the doubles by a big margin?”

#This is what’s getting to me I can get 2 darts on the wire and the third an inch away.  This year I was leading many games but just missing the doubles by ¼ inch or less most times.  If it went inside than I had the 20 to 5 or 16 to 1 routine, more times than I should have.  My scoring was fine considering the division I am in and probably over 92% of the time I was in the game and had chances to win but more losses were due to missing doubles then scoring problems.  So I think most doubles were missed by 1/2 inch or less some more some less on the wire.  Just thinking in the all the double in games this year I never missed getting in it may have been late for some games but I did get in only not on any one specific double if I could not hit a double in 6 darts I went to another number to get in.  The going out on a double is my major problem.

#This is really something that only quality time and dedication will improve upon, if you undertake a program of deliberate practice to measure your improvement and iron out weaknesses as you go, the time taken to achieve consistency will be reduced. It won't happen overnight...but it will happen.
The other point I'd like to mention about closing or doubling-in is that as you improve naturally so will your confidence level  and nervousness turns into excited expectation.
I know several players who score well and struggle through nerves or self doubt about how to finish especially when under pressure. This is where you need to get your self-talk into gear and 'know you're going to win the game' ....yes,even a level of 'self-induced bravado' can help you develop a winning mindset.

“Is your grouping good?”
This varies by the hour oh well might as well take a hit here because sometimes all 3 dart points look like they are touching and the next three are within a 3 inch circle, sometimes a bigger circle.  This seems to affect my scoring more than doubles.  I seem to get better groupings when shooting at the doubles than when trying for the triples.  So are groupings good well yes and no sometimes it also depends on the location tops are not as good as the bottom of the board.

As mentioned earlier try dedicating some sessions just on bull practice this will help I feel. When all is said and done though 'around the clock 1-20'  is the best practice routine I know for improving your doubles success after you've considered my earlier points.

Most importantly no doubt like your bowls your progress and skill level will fluctuate so don't be too hard on yourself ........if this game was easy there'd be 50 Phil Taylors' and dozens of MVG's around Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Cheers
Dorian
Son of Merlin

Caerleon - Wales

(Mission "KURO" M4 rear taper design- 23GmYellow Kite Shape Flights 100 micron & Solid Brass Stems)

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My father Merlin, once told me that "You should end up pointing to what you were aiming at when you've released the Dart."




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Just do simple Round the Clock doubles for the start i would suggest. And if you feel comfortable hitting doubles start more advanced double practice.
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Bobs 27 is a good one too
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Member previously known as Daveheald

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Thanks to all for the suggestions.

I will be looking at the following points:

“Think about your action in some detail and make sure your grip position is the same for each dart.”

This is something I did not think about.   During my last practice I do remember throwing the dart before having it feel right in my hand.  So I will have to make an effort to always make sure the grip is the same.

“that your elbow is the only pivot point and your wrist remains locked” and “You need to be self-conscious of any change you make between darts and eliminate variables” Slow down your throw a little to assist yourself with this.”

This I will have to video more often because I am not sure about my position with elbow up-down-or level and how my wrist is during the preshot and shooting action.  Slowing down is a good suggestion also because I know sometimes I am too fast.  A previous video made me aware of the snatching when I went to shoot the third dart, I seemed to be in a rush but was not aware of my actions while shooting.  I think I have slowed that down and stopped the snatching but will have to watch in my next video.  However, being self-conscious of what I am doing is going to be a new thought because all I presently think about is the target and making a good shot.  I never think about what not to do or even what I am doing I generally turn on auto mode an let my arm do whatever to hit the target.  I do know and feel when something is wrong like my arm going across my body, not straight at the target and various other incorrect movements.
 
“This is really something that only quality time and dedication will improve upon, if you undertake a program of deliberate practice to measure your improvement and iron out weaknesses as you go, the time taken to achieve consistency will be reduced.  It would be useful if you were able to ask an experienced player to study your action to see if there are any obvious variables in your throw.”


The quality time and dedication is something I am willing to do however my thoughts are still what do I do to make it a quality time practice. I have to read up more on this deliberate practice as I have seen it in other posts on the website.  One of my problems is I do not know any good dart players that can spot what I am doing wrong and I have not found any coaches for darts in my area.  This excludes my teammates who some are good but only know what they need to do and the suggestions have not helped much up to now.

“The other point I'd like to mention about closing or doubling-in is that as you improve naturally so will your confidence level and nervousness turns into excited expectation.
I know several players who score well and struggle through nerves or self doubt about how to finish especially when under pressure. This is where you need to get your self-talk into gear and 'know you're going to win the game' ....yes, even a level of 'self-induced bravado' can help you develop a winning mindset.”


Well I know this is a problem even though I have been in the league for 3 seasons I still get nervous when starting the game however after the first dart and hopefully it hits the board I calm down.  That is until I get to an out shot, then that feeling comes back again, if I hit it then there is relief.  However if I don’t it seems to just go up another notch especially if the other player is also on an out shot.  Well, at least changing my confidence level does not have to land in a double but may be just as tough to do, something I can work on.  
Thanks everyone for the suggestions but with the thoughts above I think I will look into deliberate practice for my setup and throwing stroke while reducing the number of doubles I practice on to build up my confidence.  Around the clock and Bob’s 27 will be in my future and something to reach for as a goal.

If you have any other suggestions I am always open to new ideas to improve.
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Around the board doubles and the split doubles routines would be my suggestions... Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.: Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. darts for life..! :stressed:
Darts: unicorn blackstar 22 grms carbon shaft Robson plus flights
Board: Terton Craft Samurai
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Doubling out is different to those other things (doubling in, Bob's 27, Around The Clock) in that a miss inside is not the same as a miss outside. In, for example, Bob's 27 a visit at 1's that goes single 1, single 1, double 1 is a successful one but this is no good in 501 when you have 2 left. This makes a difference for me and changes how I approach doubles.

Why not try a doubles game that reflects this? Have 3 darts to close each of the even numbers from 2 to 40 and see how you go. Now when you hit single 10 going for the double there's a consequence, and you know that at the start of the visit. Record which ones you close out and which ones you don't. This will show you over time which, if any, doubles you are stronger or weaker at.

I'm not saying the other doubles routines have no purpose but I personally think "winning double practice" is its own type of doubles practice.

Darts: Harrows Glen Durrant Duzza Series 2 24g, short Harrows Supergrip shafts, Harrows flights (Marathon/Retina/Optix/Rapide) 


Best 501: 13 darts (League), 14 darts (Pro Darter)

Best Checkout: 154 (League), 160 (Pro Darter)
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(03-30-2016, 01:20 PM)Banz Wrote: Doubling out is different to those other things (doubling in, Bob's 27, Around The Clock) in that a miss inside is not the same as a miss outside.  In, for example, Bob's 27 a visit at 1's that goes single 1, single 1, double 1 is a successful one but this is no good in 501 when you have 2 left. This makes a difference for me and changes how I approach doubles.

Why not try a doubles game that reflects this? Have 3 darts to close each of the even numbers from 2 to 40 and see how you go. Now when you hit single 10 going for the double there's a consequence, and you know that at the start of the visit. Record which ones you close out and which ones you don't. This will show you over time which, if any, doubles you are stronger or weaker at.

I'm not saying the other doubles routines have no purpose but I personally think "winning double practice" is its own type of doubles practice.

I like that Mr Banz Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. ..... makes good sense (+1)

Cheers
Dorian
Son of Merlin

Caerleon - Wales

(Mission "KURO" M4 rear taper design- 23GmYellow Kite Shape Flights 100 micron & Solid Brass Stems)

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My father Merlin, once told me that "You should end up pointing to what you were aiming at when you've released the Dart."




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Banz, I think this is a good practice drill because I have hit the single and then I had to shoot at the next double in order to go out.  This would be a change from the double routines I have been doing.

I also found a drill Dorian had on another thread that with 3 darts he just shoots one dart at three different doubles like 20-10-5. Also like all of these drills you continue shooting until you have X number of marks in all 3, but always shooting at all 3 never dropping any one because you hit it X number of times.  I have tried this and it is very hard for my skill level.

I like both drills and will add them into my practice this way if either one gets too difficult I still have other routines to keep me motivated for more practice and not give up.

Thanks for the suggestion.
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