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Aim for 20 or 19?
This speaks about a difference in height helping to determine what to aim at, but the bottom line is how accurate you are:]

https://www.unicorn-darts.com/news/2013/...m-all.aspx

UNIBOFFIN Wrote:So a player who’s 5ft rather than 6ft will, like for like, have to throw at more than a 50% greater angle or with nearly 50% more velocity. Either way, this could induce around 50% more error. And that’s not allowing for the taller player being able to lean further forward and hence reduce the dart’s flight distance. Question is now, can anything be done about that?

Well, this is where maths initially just leads to answers that are pure common sense. To start with, one could forget misplaced pride and aim at 19s rather than 20s – statistically, ignoring any individual aiming preferences, and because 7 and 3 are more than 5 and 1, it can be shown that you need to have a 3-dart scoring average over 80 before aiming at treble 20 is any more productive than aiming a treble 19 - if you average below 60, it’s less.

The bolded bits apply whether or not you are 5 or 6 ft tall.  It makes not sense to shoot T20 until you have an 80+ average... *actually I think it is 75+, but certainly, it is not 60 *.

There are terrific benefits to learning to play like that...... when you do get good enough to throw for T20, you have a well practiced cover shot at the ready.
]While you are learning the game, you are playing at a higher average than you would be had you been shooting T20.  You're more valuable in a doubles match.  Going second in Cricket capitalizes on strength.  It is better overall for a novice player to avoid the T20! 

When your average games of 501 become less than 20 darts, you can then switch to T20.
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(11-09-2015, 10:05 PM)BigE Wrote: This speaks about a difference in height helping to determine what to aim at, but the bottom line is how accurate you are:]

https://www.unicorn-darts.com/news/2013/...m-all.aspx

UNIBOFFIN Wrote:So a player who’s 5ft rather than 6ft will, like for like, have to throw at more than a 50% greater angle or with nearly 50% more velocity. Either way, this could induce around 50% more error. And that’s not allowing for the taller player being able to lean further forward and hence reduce the dart’s flight distance. Question is now, can anything be done about that?

Well, this is where maths initially just leads to answers that are pure common sense. To start with, one could forget misplaced pride and aim at 19s rather than 20s – statistically, ignoring any individual aiming preferences, and because 7 and 3 are more than 5 and 1, it can be shown that you need to have a 3-dart scoring average over 80 before aiming at treble 20 is any more productive than aiming a treble 19 - if you average below 60, it’s less.

The bolded bits apply whether or not you are 5 or 6 ft tall.  It makes not sense to shoot T20 until you have an 80+ average... *actually I think it is 75+, but certainly, it is not 60 *.

There are terrific benefits to learning to play like that...... when you do get good enough to throw for T20, you have a well practiced cover shot at the ready.
]While you are learning the game, you are playing at a higher average than you would be had you been shooting T20.  You're more valuable in a doubles match.  Going second in Cricket capitalizes on strength.  It is better overall for a novice player to avoid the T20! 

When your average games of 501 become less than 20 darts, you can then switch to T20.

That is interesting when you consider that Premiere division of our own league boasts a TOP average in the mid sixties for players who have played more than one game (and one guy who played one game who has a 75).  Seems odd to have an entire two leagues (ours and Metro) not shooting at the 20!  
That being said, maybe it is the way to go?  
I know Tom hits the 19s a lot and he has been pretty tough to beat!
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I know a player who shoots 19's and he is very tuff.
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(11-09-2015, 11:35 PM)davidsproull Wrote: That is interesting when you consider that Premiere division of our own league boasts a TOP average in the mid sixties for players who have played more than one game (and one guy who played one game who has a 75).  Seems odd to have an entire two leagues (ours and Metro) not shooting at the 20!  
That being said, maybe it is the way to go?  
I know Tom hits the 19s a lot and he has been pretty tough to beat!

Our darting sea is a very small pond.  Few that really are at the top of the game here play in leagues like we do.  

You can 'tough it out' and pound away at the T20 until your accuracy improves, but then you need to realize that it is the grouping and not the result that you are improving.  In our small pond, too much emphasis is placed on the result, not enough on the method -- be that physical technique, mental game or strategy.  

Since we emphasize results, no one talks about technique, but when it is mentioned, it is largely wrong.

Our mental game training is basically reduced to "Play the board".  Nothing about ways to calm down or focus or how to stop someone from getting inside your head/distracting you..... 

At best, we talk about learning outs to improve, and even that gets polluted with egoist thinking like "I shoot for what I think I can hit" rather than what has been proven time and time again as the most successful path. 

IMO, it is even worse that no one ever talks about what to shoot for to increase your chances of a good score while you are learning the game.


I've said this many many times:  

The first step to improving your game is accepting how good you actually are.  That's the part where people ought to swallow their pride and shoot at what they ought to to get best results.

The second step is to *consciously* work on your game.  What starts as a conscious effort becomes an unconscious one with repetition.   Simple example:  Right handed player standing with left foot forward is told to stand with their right foot forward instead.  After enough practice, this becomes "natural".   Every movement in darts is the same.  

Sadly, most players lack the basic understanding of these movements.  The lack of follow through is evident at every level.  This is the first and most basic fundamental of technique, yet it is absent, so average our 'A' level league players are playing  at 54 PPT. 

I am sure there is a far different group of darts players around these parts that avoids playing in these leagues that always plays at better than 60 PPT.
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Been shooting a lot at 19's lately mainly due to back and neck problems.
Yeah getting old ain't a lot of fun but have hit quite a few 171's a lot of 133's and heaps of 95's.
It's been quite refreshing for me actually and gives you another level of confidence when you are missing the 20's.
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(11-10-2015, 09:49 AM)Assassin Wrote: Been shooting a lot at 19's lately mainly due to back and neck problems.
Yeah getting old ain't a lot of fun but have hit quite a few 171's a lot of 133's and heaps of 95's.
It's been quite refreshing for me actually and gives you another level of confidence when you are missing the 20's.

And if we're honest with ourselves, since we can be "missing the 20's" so much that we start to avoid them, perhaps avoiding them from the start is better?  At least until we've learned to trust that our stroke will place a dart close enough to what we are aiming at.

Now the Uniboffin says it is 80 PPT where that happens.  In "a geek plays darts", the score is lower.... Actually around 21 PPD, or about 63 PPT.  The link is very mathy, but it is worth the struggle. Once again, skill level is not defined by hitting your target. It is defined by how far away from the target your darts land -- ie. the size of the grouping surrounding the target. The target is not the T20 area , it is a spot on the board -- like the center of the T20, or the center of the bull. It is very very specific.

 https://datagenetics.com/blog/january12012/index.html

You can measure your own skill level by shooting 50 darts for bull, counting red or green as one.  If you hit 26 or more, aim at the T20 during games.  If you hit less, aim just outside/below the T19 wire.
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I am in a Handicap league,,,,I get skipped so much I never get a shot at the 20's,,,,I am talking cricket here,,,,, not 501 ,, 18 has become my favorite number,,,,,
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I stand close to 5'10" and throwing at the T20 has it's problems for me. I can group them just fine but nailing it has always stumped me. I usually throw in a low profile shoe but on the days I get some higher boots or shoes on my throw improves dramatically. It's more like looking down on the board by only a couple cm's but physically it's much different.
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(11-10-2015, 06:19 AM)BigE Wrote:
(11-09-2015, 11:35 PM)davidsproull Wrote: That is interesting when you consider that Premiere division of our own league boasts a TOP average in the mid sixties for players who have played more than one game (and one guy who played one game who has a 75).  Seems odd to have an entire two leagues (ours and Metro) not shooting at the 20!  
That being said, maybe it is the way to go?  
I know Tom hits the 19s a lot and he has been pretty tough to beat!

Our darting sea is a very small pond.  Few that really are at the top of the game here play in leagues like we do.  

You can 'tough it out' and pound away at the T20 until your accuracy improves, but then you need to realize that it is the grouping and not the result that you are improving.  In our small pond, too much emphasis is placed on the result, not enough on the method -- be that physical technique, mental game or strategy.  

Since we emphasize results, no one talks about technique, but when it is mentioned, it is largely wrong.

Our mental game training is basically reduced to "Play the board".  Nothing about ways to calm down or focus or how to stop someone from getting inside your head/distracting you..... 

At best, we talk about learning outs to improve, and even that gets polluted with egoist thinking like "I shoot for what I think I can hit" rather than what has been proven time and time again as the most successful path. 

IMO, it is even worse that no one ever talks about what to shoot for to increase your chances of a good score while you are learning the game.


I've said this many many times:  

The first step to improving your game is accepting how good you actually are.  That's the part where people ought to swallow their pride and shoot at what they ought to to get best results.

The second step is to *consciously* work on your game.  What starts as a conscious effort becomes an unconscious one with repetition.   Simple example:  Right handed player standing with left foot forward is told to stand with their right foot forward instead.  After enough practice, this becomes "natural".   Every movement in darts is the same.  

Sadly, most players lack the basic understanding of these movements.  The lack of follow through is evident at every level.  This is the first and most basic fundamental of technique, yet it is absent, so average our 'A' level league players are playing  at 54 PPT. 

I am sure there is a far different group of darts players around these parts that avoids playing in these leagues that always plays at better than 60 PPT.

Well I know of one group that maybe shoots at a higher level, but as far as I can tell most leagues are around about where we are.
I think a lot of the technique issues you speak of stem from the simple fact that it is supposed to be a fun/rec league and not intended to produce champions, although there are some (like you and I) that put some time in to the game.

I am not sure if i "shoot for what I can hit" is so much egoist as it is a comfort level thing.  Offer something as an alternate, but to scream at a new player that they are "wrong" when they are simply throwing what they have learned (or been taught) will just turn them off the game.  It also introduces thinking, and thinking is deadly in darts. Second biggest game killer next to trying.

I do agree with you though that there is too much emphasis on results (I.E. 'winning') and this is true I think most sports, where actual growth and skills development take a back seat  to immediate gratification.  
Again, though I don't think the majority of players practice and so on and may not be interested in 'growth'.

I do believe that people should accept the level their darts are at but NOT that 'this is how good they are'.  Never ever ever ever use self limiting language.  

Needless to say I think it is the emotional/mental game that is most important of all.   Anyone can achieve if they are willing to pay the price in practice time, setbacks and failures.  

In the end I think there are some that do and are willing to teach, but also a certain degree of contradiction between players who have had some degree of results, so after a while you kind of need to choose for yourself what is right and wrong. (I don't think even the pros all agree!!)
I am not saying dig your heels in and stick to something that is clearly not working, nor am I saying follow every suggestion that comes along.  Assimilate and try out new ideas in practice, and then decide which shot option works best for YOU and YOUR shot tendencies, and then stick to and use that in games.  

All of this being said, I'v been having a bit of a shoot at the 19s this morning and have been pretty darn happy with the results. 

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What I mean when I say egoist includes things like not shooting 25 when on 65 with 3 darts in hand.  People never learn to do it, because they never shoot at it.  

Like anything else, you need to work on it to do it.  But, the ego says "I can hit T15 better than 25".  So they never learn to make the correct shot and end up taking low percentage shots forever because they fear missing the 25 or the bull.   That is misplaced protection of the ego.

An even better example.... with two darts in hand and 65 points, people shoot for T15 instead of S15.  That is a pure ego shot, ("I know I can hit this")  which often ends up in the T10 or T2 leaving no game shot.  Been there, done that.  It is not smart darts, especially with your opponent on a double.  You can shoot it if the opponent is not on a finish, but even then, you are missing an opportunity to practice it.

More smart darts: I've been watching the grand prix.  I've seen many times when the pros have 61 with two darts in hand, they shoot S11 to leave Bull.  The shot is taken to the heart of the S11. It is not even close to the T11 -- and these are PROS!!! If anyone should expect to hit T11, they should.  In our league, I've seen two darts in hand with 61 left and the attempt is made on T13 to leave 24 ... 

Oh sure, many people don't practice.  And many of those that don't practice have no clue as to what the correct out shot is, yet they will defend their choice to the death.  It's just not worth arguing with them about it.  These are the same folks that say they have to snatch their darts because they miss when they follow through.....or they can somehow finesse them in by making wild gyrations on the oche.


All of that leads to the conclusion that league nights are not where you learn to play darts.   It is where you learn to compete.  Where you learn to turn on your game in a best of 3 scenario.  The pressure is short, it is intense, and you must learn to deal with it.  Taking the percentage shot is one way to help reduce pressure.  

BTW: Watching pro darts is a great way to learn how to subtract quickly.  Just try to beat the scores being displayed before they change.  It helps a great deal when near an out.
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David, are you going to play tonight?
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(11-10-2015, 10:02 PM)BigE Wrote: David, are you going to play tonight?

You bet! Long trek but one of the more enjoyable teams to play!  :-)

..and back to your last post I always went 45-20 on 65 but think 25-40 is great option.
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OK. An update on the shoot for 19s thing.
I think scoring wise it is pretty effective. Not a lot of a ton plus scores... but plenty of 80's and 90's and really nothing lower than a 30 or so.
The tricky part is maybe switching back up to the 20s when you are looking to close, but really think I'll give this another go.
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(11-11-2015, 06:45 PM)davidsproull Wrote: OK. An update on the shoot for 19s thing.
I think scoring wise it is pretty effective.  Not a lot of a ton plus scores... but plenty of 80's and 90's and really nothing lower than a 30 or so.
The tricky part is maybe switching back up to the 20s when you are looking to close, but really think I'll give this another go.

Yes, the higher scores are a little lower, but the lower scores are higher.  It's intent is to minimize damage from missing.  Once you get to the point that hitting 95 is pissing you off,  and you're producing a sub 24 dart game on average, then switch and see what the effect is on your darts/game average.
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(11-12-2015, 04:57 AM)BigE Wrote:
(11-11-2015, 06:45 PM)davidsproull Wrote: OK. An update on the shoot for 19s thing.
I think scoring wise it is pretty effective.  Not a lot of a ton plus scores... but plenty of 80's and 90's and really nothing lower than a 30 or so.
The tricky part is maybe switching back up to the 20s when you are looking to close, but really think I'll give this another go.

Yes, the higher scores are a little lower, but the lower scores are higher.  It's intent is to minimize damage from missing.  Once you get to the point that hitting 95 is pissing you off,  and you're producing a sub 24 dart game on average, then switch and see what the effect is on your darts/game average.

A lot of similar scores occur when shooting 19's or 20's
41 45 83 85 95 121 123 135
Someone sure put some thought into the design of the dartboard.
Fascinating stuff.
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