Harrows Darts.

how to tell someone they are playing wrong?
hello everyone! its been a while since I posted anything but I have an issue and im not quite sure what to do about it but you guys have always helped me in the past so I figured I would give it a shot. even if I don't get an answer that will help me at least I know you guys can sympathize with me and make me feel like im not crazy.

ok so my wife and I have only been playing darts for about 14 or 15 months or so. but in that time we both have put in a lot of hours practicing and learning. one of the things I started focusing on almost immediately was learning my check outs because the way I figured it was that if I studied and practiced the checkouts it will definitely win me a few games here and there that I probably shouldn't have won just for the fact that I didn't have to stop and look at the chart with every dart. and believe me it has won me a few. the problem Im having isn't with me, its with a teammate of mine. to say that his checkout philosophy is odd would be an understatement. his checkouts are not only not winning him games but its actually costing him games.

for instance, we were playing doubles a week or so ago and I left him 92 to go. so he tosses in the general direction of 16 and misses outside, then tosses again and hits single 16, then stops...figures out what he has left and throws at 20 and hits 5. so after he threw I asked him what the hell he was throwing at. he then tells me his checkout was D16, S20, D20. I sat there absolutely stunned. I didn't know what to say to that. he does that kind of thing all the time, just not maybe to that extent. that was absolutely the weirdest thing I have ever heard of coming from someone that has years of experience playing. that was just stupid, no other words describe it.

he does this whenever there is an odd ton or so left he will aim at the odd number (example with 115 left he will aim as S15 then try to T20, D20). and stuff like that normally wouldn't be considered a terrible play, except for the fact that he isn't very reliable on those numbers and he can usually drill 20s with ease. its irritating as hell. with 91 left he threw at T17 and hit S17, then threw his other two darts at D17 missing both.

I can see aiming at the triple if you leave the same double, or even aiming at a weird triple if you have a double one number higher or lower. I can totally see that. I don't do it but I can see why some people do. but his way of checking out just boggles my mind. so my question to the nutz is 1) is this something that is common and I'm just crazy for doing something different? and 2) what would be a polite and effective way of making him see that what hes doing is counter-productive and moreover, stupid?

thanks in advance,
Frustrated
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Well it sounds like you are already talking to him about his choice, and Im assuming you tell him what you would've aimed at after? I dont know if there is much you can do besides that.

I played a luck of the draw last Saturday, and ended up with one dart in hand with 110 left. I aimed at T20 and missed a little high on the wire. My logic was to leave my partner 50, which on the soft tip boards is pretty big. He told me to never switch up, just stay on bulls. I am pretty sure my way would have a higher percentage, but I just told him OK and that I would do it next time. After all, it is him walking to the line next so I will aim at whatever he wants (within reason). If you're bringing it up to your partner and he is sticking with his old ways, you just gotta deal with it I guess.
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Odd is an understatement as to your teammates out selection. I will say this, after being involved in darts for about 30 years now, I can truly say I've seen some strange stuff when it comes to this game we love. Some folks look like jumping jacks at the line with tons of unneeded motion prior to their throw, some look like they are trying to throw the dart through the board while others throw so soft they barely make it there.

I live in the U.S. and the preferred game with many players is Cricket. I've seen ungodly horrible tactics by players chasing instead of moving to another number, closing and scoring, throwing the 3rd dart at a number they need 3 marks to take instead of staying on a number and scoring and hoping to hit that "Hero Dart".

Like your situation, some peoples choices of out shots is horrendous. I personally know a guy that once played on a team I was on that, if he had 37 left, he'd throw at the 7 to leave 30. Bad thing was, as my partner in doubles 501 games, he'd have to be told not to leave me 30, but try to leave me 40 or 32 if he couldn't take it out with his last dart.

Bottom line is, some folks just don't get it, and no matter how much you try to teach, preach, cajole, threaten, they will still play like they have no clue. You have my sympathy.
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a slap around the head and the gift of a checkout card lol.

I understand people have their preferred doubles, for me it's tops, tens or 15's. I hit them with regularity, more so than 16's and 8's. So I understand that it's easier for him to leave his preferred doubles, but he really needs the back up plan, if he misses his first target then he needs to know what's left to get to his preferred double, but it sounds like he's going for the easiest option. If he hit single 17 when aiming for treble, then he should have gone T18 D10 (or that's the option I would have gone) rather than waste 2 darts trying to hit the double.

One thing to never forget though... you can't fix stupid! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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Honestly you should probably just come right out and tell your friend and teammate how you feel about their choices and why you feel there incorrect.  Try to explain why you go the route you go and see if it makes sense to them - you could ask leading questions to get them to the right example.  In the 92 example - "oh, why would you want to shoot for a double sixteen on your first dart when even if you hit it you need 2 more darts to get out - if you throw at a triple 20 you could get out in only 2 darts instead of 3 right?

Let them know that you have put in some work studying the outshots, watching other, better, players - It's really important that you include the "whys" in your eplanation (it takes less darts, it's a safer shot, etc).



Or - covertly slip a pocket out chart in their dart case.
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I will go for different outs to set my teammate up for a double they like better... Only if the situation allows it though. If I'm on a setup shot, and have one dart in hand, I will step off and flat out ask what they want if I'm not sure of their preferences.
-Milky

Keeping dart retailers in business since 2012.
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I'm glad not to be playing with your partner, I would have been incandescent just watching his antic's. Over time I have drawn a line between people that play darts and other's that throw darts and will not team up with the latter for any reason. Ok so I am not the greatest player myself but FFS what chance have you got when your partner chooses to play like a muppet through ignorance and lack of application!
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Playing 40 years on and off and still barely average
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(10-26-2015, 09:59 PM)ChrisTheFish Wrote: I'm glad not to be playing with your partner, I would have been incandescent just watching his antic's. Over time I have drawn a line between people that play darts and other's that throw darts and will not team up with the latter for any reason. Ok so I am not the greatest player myself but FFS what chance have you got when your partner chooses to play like a muppet through ignorance and lack of application!

No kidding.  I would have no trouble asking him:  "The rest of the world knows that 92 is a two dart out, why don't you?"

As far as 91 turning into 74 and the next shot being at the 34, I'd say the same thing:  "The rest of the world knows 74 is 42-32, why don't you?" 

And upon *any* answer that tries to justify that shot, I'd tell him that throwing away his darts is not a percentage play. If you miss and score zero, you're not helping.  If you miss and score 14, you are..... If I was angry enough, I'd ask him why he thinks throwing exhibition darts ( when you're not a pro ) in a match is a good idea.

There is no way you can be polite here.   He's playing like a fool, so deserves to be treated like one. The language I would use would probably turn the air blue.
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Ignore it.

I've posted thread after thread here with video evidence of why shooting at certain outshots might be "wrong" in certain scenario's and quite a few, more than 50% of the players/members choose to ignore that advice according to polls.

Dart players are a stubborn bunch for some reason. If they go a certain way on some outs, then that's the way it's going to be. Even if you show these players a way that's easier and less risky.

I'm certainly not immune to playing like a complete idiot myself. About a week ago I was playing in an online match. Throwing some of the best darts of my life. I had a chance to wrap up the match with 51 left and record one of my highest averages ever. What do I do? Yep, throw a genius dart at single 19 to leave D16. Plonk! Dead center in the middle of the treble 19! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. Not only did I blow a great average, I almost lost the match.

Had I listened to my own advice and gone 11's with the 1st dart I could 100% guarantee that I wouldn't have busted with the first dart. Point is, people are idiots. Myself included at times. I wouldn't bother telling this guy anything. Just make sure you don't end up on the same league team as him. People like this are downers and don't really want to win at anything anyway.
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(10-26-2015, 10:54 PM)Cyanide Wrote: Ignore it.

I've posted thread after thread here with video evidence of why shooting at certain outshots might be "wrong" in certain scenario's and quite a few, more than 50% of the players/members choose to ignore that advice according to polls.

Dart players are a stubborn bunch for some reason. If they go a certain way on some outs, then that's the way it's going to be. Even if you show these players a way that easier and less risky.

I'm certainly not immune to playing like a complete idiot myself. About a week ago I was playing in an online match. Throwing some of the best darts of my life. I had a chance to wrap up the match with 51 left and record one of my highest averages ever. What do I do? Yep, throw a genius dart at single 19 to leave D16. Plonk! Dead center in the middle of the treble 19! Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.  Not only did I blow a great average, I almost lost the match.

Had I listened to my own advice and gone 11's with the 1st dart I could 100% guarantee that I wouldn't have busted with the first dart. Point is, people are idiots. Myself included at times. I wouldn't bother telling this guy anything. Just make sure you don't end up on the same league team as him.  People like this are downers and don't really want to win at anything anyway.

Yiikes!  CY!  That's an awfully bleak view of the darts world.

Suppose I yell at the guy, and it scares him away from the game.  Would you call that a win or a lose?
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(10-26-2015, 10:56 PM)BigE Wrote: Yiikes!  CY!  That's an awfully bleak view of the darts world.

Suppose I yell at the guy, and it scares him away from the game.  Would you call that a win or a lose?

Depends on the person. Some people are open to new idea's and suggestions. The original poster in this thread knows the guy. If he's open to new idea's and willing to learn something new, then by all means, share. 

If he's a toolbag and wants to go his own ways then have at it. If someone doesn't ask for advice then who are we to start giving it? 

Yelling is never a good thing though. I'd say that's a loss. It's just darts.

But what I said isn't far from being wrong. It's just the harsh truth. OP asked a question. I give blunt answer that nobody else wants to type Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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it wouldn't be so bad if he were a really crappy player but hes actually pretty darn good. but he could be great if he made better choices. speaking of cricket, he does the same thing there too. if he has one dart in hand and has 1 mark on a number he will aim at the double and miss entirely a lot more than he hits. there are lots of times playing cricket when I have one dart left and nothing to score on and nothing I can close out in one dart I will take a shot at bull if I feel like im doing well. but I do that having confidence in that shot and knowing that I have a really good chance of hitting it (for some reason im really, really good at hitting bull, its every other number that gives me problems lol). to me the only time you should be aiming at a double is if that's your out shot. I never, ever aim at double any other time, especially not as a set up shot.

i have been trying to drop tidbits of advice here and there but i guess some people are just set in their ways and they aren't going to change them. the last time we played together i told him there wasn't any reason to try and get cute or fancy when your opponent is sitting on an out. stop trying to get fancy and leave your preferred out, just aim at the number you are confident in throwing at and worry about the double later. with something like 86 left i would much rather take my chances with D13 with two darts left (knowing that if i miss the T20 and hit a single i still have a S16, DB left) than to try and do something fancy and end up not only missing the triple but missing the big number entirely and leaving myself no shot at an out.

everyone else on the team has been really good about listening to me even though i am still new. when you explain the logic its hard to argue against.

thanks for the replies guys!
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Well I will say on 86, wouldn't T18 be your first target? If you hit it you leave D16. If you miss, you still have 18 then bull.

Maybe he doesn't want your advice cause he watched you throw at some odd outs yourself? Just kidding :fishing: Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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Dmott has a really good point there.
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I am thinking he is either bad at numbers or somehow got it in his head 'this is the way you do it.'

Now I have all kinds of people badger me with with all kinds of out shot opinions, and I entertain the ones who don't badger me while I'm trying to shoot.

As far as the person in question, maybe say " You have a great shot, but you could bring your game to the next level with just a bit better shot selection. It's easy once you get the hang of it, and I'd be glad to show it to you once you feel you are ready to learn it. You'll be really happy with the results"

..and then leave it at that.
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