Harrows Darts.

Stance overhaul
I was playing a double blind tournament last night, and after it ended a fellow member came over while I was shooting around. He is a much older gentleman who has been playing a long time. He said if I changed my stance he thinks I could do significantly better than I currently do. Last night I took first in the first draw and third in the second.

Current Stance- Lined up in the middle (except for bulls). I have my front foot straight on, and my back foot is elevated kind of on the ball of my foot and toes.

Recommendation- What was recommended to me was to stand flat footed, with the front foot how I have it and the rear also flat but more to the left of my front foot and on an angle (as opposed to being behind and on the toes).

I shot around with it, with him watching my stance and throw. It seemed to work for some number and others it was odd. He also tried to help my follow through, because usually I have a short follow through, but it works well for me.

I'm wondering if anyone has any advise or if you have gone to something different. I'm a little nervous because I am very comfortable with my play and I do quite well, but I know I can improve. I have read some of George's book and it seems the advice I was given makes sense, I just don't want to be overthinking stance and throw if I try to change it, when I'm trying to play.

Thanks!
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
The back foot need not be flat. The front heel though *ought* to be flat on the ground.

That being said, Vincent van derVoort does not do this,as his front heel rises on each shot. He's got flashes of brilliance, but is inconsistent. The standard is a *well balanced* stance, where you remain in balance over the stance leg at all times.

The suggestion to keep the back foot flat may be a quick fix for some potentially imbalanced throws. The issue with the back foot flat is that the balance point can move around depending on weight distribution between front and back legs. Many people prefer to have as little change from stroke to stroke as possible.

A full follow through though, is the ticket. That takes a long time to develop and refine. Given your successes, it is not something you should expect to see any improvement from right away. However, when you look at the pros, it is clear they all have a full follow through. This is no accident.
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Do you have good balance in your normal stance? For instance, does your back foot stay in place on release?
If it moves, a bit of extra stability may help you. If not, I wouldn't try to change it seeing you're comfortable as it is right now.

Investing some time in improving your follow through sounds like a good idea though. But only work on this during practice and not during matches of course. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
Cheers
Red
Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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(09-21-2015, 03:03 PM)BigE Wrote: The back foot need not be flat. The front heel though *ought* to be flat on the ground.

That being said, Vincent van derVoort does not do this,as his front heel rises on each shot. He's got flashes of brilliance, but is inconsistent. The standard is a *well balanced* stance, where you remain in balance over the stance leg at all times.

The suggestion to keep the back foot flat may be a quick fix for some potentially imbalanced throws. The issue with the back foot flat is that the balance point can move around depending on weight distribution between front and back legs. Many people prefer to have as little change from stroke to stroke as possible.

A full follow through though, is the ticket. That takes a long time to develop and refine. Given your successes, it is not something you should expect to see any improvement from right away. However, when you look at the pros, it is clear they all have a full follow through. This is no accident.

Ok Thanks. He did mention I tend to bounce sometimes on my backfoot. My front foot is flat and I tend to put my weight on the front. I will try to keep developing the follow through. My throw get a lot of comments on how much I spin the dart. I start holding the dart in a pencil grip with 3 fingers (Thumb, index, middle), as I pull back my index finger comes off the dart and I throw w/ my thumb and middle, which is why it spins. I have messed around with that but I can't really grip it any other way that is comfortable. But I will try to extend the follow through, thanks
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
(09-21-2015, 03:07 PM)Red Wrote: Do you have good balance in your normal stance? For instance, does your back foot stay in place on release?
If it moves, a bit of extra stability may help you. If not, I wouldn't try to change it seeing you're comfortable as it is right now.

Investing some time in improving your follow through sounds like a good idea though. But only work on this during practice and not during matches of course. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
Cheers
Red

This is going to sound weird but if I'm sober I tend to bounce a bit off the back foot. If I have had a few beers and I'm relaxed I stay more balanced, though every once in a while the foot comes up a little.
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
(09-21-2015, 03:09 PM)ks99dime Wrote: This is going to sound weird but if I'm sober I tend to bounce a bit off the back foot. If I have had a few beers and I'm relaxed I stay more balanced, though every once in a while the foot comes up a little.

Like BigE said, the bouncing of the back foot probably has to do with your weight moving forward on release which isn't ideal as you want to be as solid as possible.
More movement in your body only means more points of possible errors in consistancy.

Because you say this goes away after a few beers it gives me the idea you're leaning forward a bit too much at the beginning.
Try to stand up a bit straighter from the get go (no need to make other changes your stance). This puts a bit more weight on the back foot for more stability and the bounce should be gone.
Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.
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(09-21-2015, 03:40 PM)Red Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 03:09 PM)ks99dime Wrote: This is going to sound weird but if I'm sober I tend to bounce a bit off the back foot. If I have had a few beers and I'm relaxed I stay more balanced, though every once in a while the foot comes up a little.

Like BigE said, the bouncing of the back foot probably has to do with your weight moving forward on release which isn't ideal as you want to be as solid as possible.
More movement in your body only means more points of possible errors in consistancy.

Because you say this goes away after a few beers it gives me the idea you're leaning forward a bit too much at the beginning.
Try to stand up a bit straighter from the get go (no need to make other changes your stance). This puts a bit more weight on the back foot for more stability and the bounce should be gone.

Thanks I'll give it a go.
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
Thumb and *middle* finger are last to go? This is the first time I have heard of that sort of release. Are your middle and index fingers really close together?

In a three finger grip, the middle finger is only supposed to keep the dart pointed at the board, so that the point does not drop before release. The middle finger should come off the dart first, with thumb and index last.

Does your dart fly straight or does it follow a swirling path, as if caught in a whirlpool?
Reply
(09-21-2015, 04:02 PM)BigE Wrote: Thumb and *middle* finger are last to go? This is the first time I have heard of that sort of release. Are your middle and index fingers really close together?

In a three finger grip, the middle finger is only supposed to keep the dart pointed at the board, so that the point does not drop before release. The middle finger should come off the dart first, with thumb and index last.

Does your dart fly straight or does it follow a swirling path, as if caught in a whirlpool?

It ends up being a 2 finger grip/release w/ the thumb and middle finger. It starts out pencil grip but as I draw back I take my middle finger off. The dart goes pretty straight, with a ton of spin on it, like a football spiral. Every once in a while I'll get the whirlpool like you mention but it is rare.
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
(09-21-2015, 04:02 PM)BigE Wrote: Thumb and *middle* finger are last to go? This is the first time I have heard of that sort of release. Are your middle and index fingers really close together?

In a three finger grip, the middle finger is only supposed to keep the dart pointed at the board, so that the point does not drop before release. The middle finger should come off the dart first, with thumb and index last.

Does your dart fly straight or does it follow a swirling path, as if caught in a whirlpool?

my index and middle are very close together when I'm holding the dart
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
If you take fingers off the dart on pull back, you must be squeezing pretty hard, or the point is going to move around.
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I suppose I do. I am in my office gripping a pen how I would throw a dart and I do put pressure. The grip from my middle finger is on the side of the finger (right by the bone and joint at the front of the finger, don't know how to describe it, hopefully it makes sense).

Just scrolled through the show you grip pages, on page 8 I hold it exactly like Jugger does.
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
Do you write like that too? How did you come to using that grip?

George from Flight Schools says you should use the grip you tried the very first time you threw a dart, because that is your "natural" way.

Looks like Jugger settled on :

https://www.dartsnutz.net/forum/showthre...=61&page=9
Reply
(09-21-2015, 07:51 PM)BigE Wrote: Do you write like that too? How did you come to using that grip?

George from Flight Schools says you should use the grip you tried the very first time you threw a dart, because that is your "natural" way.

Looks like Jugger settled on :

https://www.dartsnutz.net/forum/showthre...=61&page=9

Yes it is how I write. (with 3 finger though). I'm not really sure why I take the index finger off, just kind of happens. I have always thrown this way. Must of missed his switch thanks. I'm going to keep my grip because it is comfortable, I just need to work on follow through I suppose. I tend to push the dart and have a lot of wrist action in my throw. This is why I think I don't follow through all the way. I will say when I switched my stance like what was recommended it was much easier to follow through all the way.
Matchdarts- 23.3g Ks99dime Madhouse Falcon Customs, 41mm diamond points, tweenie supergrip stems, Harrows Velos flights.
Backups- 23g Shot! Birds of Prey Falcon
25g Harrows Aura a3
24g Target Power 8Zero
23g Ks99dime Madhouse Customs
23g Adrian Lewis Pixel Grip
23g Target Daytona Fire 02
23g Dennis Priestley's
22g Cuesoul Black Scorpions
22g winmau snipers
21g Ks99dime Custom
21g Harrows Wolframs
21g Harrows Atomics
20g Monster Hades 2

Reply
Following through is easier when well balanced on the stance leg -- probably you're not leaning in so much. That's a lot better from a balance perspective. Once you're balanced, the body does not have as much trouble moving. This is not so obvious in darts as it is in say skiing, but with darts being a game of mm, if you can move well, you ought to play better.

I would not worry too much about being smooth for the sake of being smooth, but I would be a bit concerned if I were getting jerky, and throwing some "wild darts" -- the kind where your arm just goes spastic and starts tossing wildly....

Then, I'd for sure try to keep the heart rate, excitement level and especially expectations in check and be as cool, calm and collected as possible while you play.

While I am a big proponent of technique, it is not the be-all and end-all. Those with the best technique on the planet are not guaranteed victory. Look at Ted Hankey. In my books, he's close to perfection. But, technique is not enough. It's probably the smallest part of darts.

I think that if you work too hard on technique you overlook even more important things -- how the mind affects your play.

Once you have a repeatable stroke that you have confidence in the winners and losers are separated by what goes on between their ears. Watch Hankey.... when he gets going, he's poking at his head, reminding himself: it's all in the mind!
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