Rookie question - one dart with 62 to go. What to aim at?
(01-28-2020, 06:04 PM)Zero Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 12:59 PM)elevendarter Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 10:08 AM)smokinjoe72 Wrote: I think it would come down to personal choice.  I have noticed that almost everyone has favorite doubles that they try to set themselves up for whenever possible.  Most seem to set up for a D16. Personally I have have always been better up the sides (11,14,13,10) so with the 62 and 1 dart I might throw for the D20 to set up D11 and if miss with a single 20 it would leave me a 14, D14, which is a shot I am comfortable with.  It really comes down to what you are most confident with, and that may change from one day to the next.  Some days I seem to hit better on the left of the board and others the right.

Lol, you remind me all those beginners who were telling me this exact thing. Stubborn, not going to play what some stupid  charts say... Of course, after a while they learnt how this works and now they know that deliberate playing their "favourite" D11, D15 etc. is nonsense.
If you practice doubles on a daily bases, then you're confident at any double anyway. I mean, if I get to D11, D15 or D17 etc. I don't mind it. I wouldn't get there deliberately though.

@mc1958
Good point these T14 (Wade) or T18.

Yep.  I read in a book recently that it is better to get into good mathing habits as a dart player from the very beginning even if that means you suck at what you need to aim at.  I get that point.  Fewer bad habits to break later on, right?  But I also think it is okay to experiment with the board while you are a new player.  It is okay to evolve as a dart player.  It is okay to learn from your mistakes (thats how we all learn anyway).  So when I am in a doubles match with a new player and they say "leave me a 22" I usually say, "you got it!"  And let them have their fun.  Winning is important, yes, but is also important to enjoy the game and not be constrained to conventional wisdom along the way.

It's kind of natural. Many new players are like this. I was thinking about what to say more to this topic and I remember the moto I heard: You have to know the rules to be able to break them.

Other thing that comes to my mind is analogy with photographing. Everyone has a camera in the cell phone now. That doesn't mean that everyone can take great pictures. Thing is, people can't see what they do wrong. They don't think about the composition, because they don't see the importance of it, however if they see the good pictures, then they like them more even though they don't know why. They know nothing about golden ratio, foreground, backrouground, how to focus to show the depth of field etc. If I am taking pictures at a tournament and need to have me on the picture, I hand my DSLR to somebody and want him to do several pictures, hoping that I'd be able to use at least one of them. Those pictures usually looks like this - the tallest player's head in the middle of the picture, cut elbows of the others at the bottom and the upper half of the picture is mostly just the wall and the ceiling. Everytime I hand the camera to someone new who hasn't done it yet, he takes this exact picture. It's natural, but it's wrong. Once I explain them what to do and why, they usually get it quickly and know how to do it next time. At least when it comes to this part of the problem...

Sadly, if I tell someone new in darts about the "rules" that would help him to become a better player, they can't understand it that quickly. Maybe they even don't believe it is that important. On the other hand, it's only my advantage when I meet these players at the oche. Do you want to beat me with your D15's? Your choice...
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(01-28-2020, 07:03 PM)elevendarter Wrote:
(01-28-2020, 06:04 PM)Zero Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 12:59 PM)elevendarter Wrote:
(01-26-2020, 10:08 AM)smokinjoe72 Wrote: I think it would come down to personal choice.  I have noticed that almost everyone has favorite doubles that they try to set themselves up for whenever possible.  Most seem to set up for a D16. Personally I have have always been better up the sides (11,14,13,10) so with the 62 and 1 dart I might throw for the D20 to set up D11 and if miss with a single 20 it would leave me a 14, D14, which is a shot I am comfortable with.  It really comes down to what you are most confident with, and that may change from one day to the next.  Some days I seem to hit better on the left of the board and others the right.

Lol, you remind me all those beginners who were telling me this exact thing. Stubborn, not going to play what some stupid  charts say... Of course, after a while they learnt how this works and now they know that deliberate playing their "favourite" D11, D15 etc. is nonsense.
If you practice doubles on a daily bases, then you're confident at any double anyway. I mean, if I get to D11, D15 or D17 etc. I don't mind it. I wouldn't get there deliberately though.

@mc1958
Good point these T14 (Wade) or T18.

Yep.  I read in a book recently that it is better to get into good mathing habits as a dart player from the very beginning even if that means you suck at what you need to aim at.  I get that point.  Fewer bad habits to break later on, right?  But I also think it is okay to experiment with the board while you are a new player.  It is okay to evolve as a dart player.  It is okay to learn from your mistakes (thats how we all learn anyway).  So when I am in a doubles match with a new player and they say "leave me a 22" I usually say, "you got it!"  And let them have their fun.  Winning is important, yes, but is also important to enjoy the game and not be constrained to conventional wisdom along the way.

It's kind of natural. Many new players are like this. I was thinking about what to say more to this topic and I remember the moto I heard: You have to know the rules to be able to break them.

Other thing that comes to my mind is analogy with photographing. Everyone has a camera in the cell phone now. That doesn't mean that everyone can take great pictures. Thing is, people can't see what they do wrong. They don't think about the composition, because they don't see the importance of it, however if they see the good pictures, then they like them more even though they don't know why. They know nothing about golden ratio, foreground, backrouground, how to focus to show the depth of field etc. If I am taking pictures at a tournament and need to have me on the picture, I hand my DSLR to somebody and want him to do several pictures, hoping that I'd be able to use at least one of them. Those pictures usually looks like this - the tallest player's head in the middle of the picture, cut elbows of the others at the bottom and the upper half of the picture is mostly just the wall and the ceiling. Everytime I hand the camera to someone new who hasn't done it yet, he takes this exact picture. It's natural, but it's wrong. Once I explain them what to do and why, they usually get it quickly and know how to do it next time. At least when it comes to this part of the problem...

Sadly, if I tell someone new in darts about the "rules" that would help him to become a better player, they can't understand it that quickly. Maybe they even don't believe it is that important. On the other hand, it's only my advantage when I meet these players at the oche. Do you want to beat me with your D15's? Your choice...

Great analogy and great response.  I think one of the barriers to new players "getting it" is that to a new player the entire board is so intimidating.  Every target seems so small and so impossible to hit.  Almost all new players, and even some seasoned ones, are afraid of the bull (for example).  Saying, "No, brah, you should go for the triple 10 because...", you lose them at 'triple' because they do not believe they can hit it.  I wonder if one of the differences between darts and photography is that with darts you have to slowly build up your skill and your confidence over a greater amount of time before aiming at a triple seems doable and reasonable.
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I would go with D15. It has the advantage that it's on exactly the same mirror image angle as the one that i would be going for after that (ie D16). It's also a bigger target than T10.

Plus, missing either way will more likely hit the 10 or the 2 which still leaves me on an even number. Going for T10 risks hitting the 15.
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(01-28-2020, 07:47 PM)Jefferz Wrote: I would go with D15. It has the advantage that it's on exactly the same mirror image angle as the one that i would be going for after that (ie D16).

Plus missing either way will more likely hit the 10 or the 2 which still leaves me on an even number. Going for T10 risks hitting the 15 to leave you on 17 (not good).

Not what I would do because I'd play T10 without hesitating. I must admit though that many times I did something similar when I was trying to finish 143. Hitting T20 with my first dart, missing T17 with my second dart, leaving me on 66. Then I often go for D17 to leave 32. TBH, both your and my way here can end up in hitting 0 points with that third dart...
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(01-28-2020, 07:42 PM)Zero Wrote: Almost all new players, and even some seasoned ones, are afraid of the bull (for example).  Saying, "No, brah, you should go for the triple 10 because...", you lose them at 'triple' because they do not believe they can hit it.  I wonder if one of the differences between darts and photography is that with darts you have to slowly build up your skill and your confidence over a greater amount of time before aiming at a triple seems doable and reasonable.

Well, I had written something about the bulseye thing in my previous post but then I deleted it so that it wasn't too complicated. But yeah, good thinking when it comes to 125, 126, 127, 135.......306 etc. is important too.

No, I don't think so. Aiming is just aiming. Learning what to aim at is much easier than learning how to hit it. There' a young kid playing with us. He's 14 and been playing with us for two years. At the beginning I was trying to help him, telling him what to aim for to get to a double etc. The same you would do for any beginner because you would expect he doesn't know much. Then his father told me that there's no need for that and to my surprise, he was absolutely right. The young kid got it all right just from watching darts on TV! We often play pairs together. And you should see the faces of our opponents in one of our very first matches playing together two years ago when this little kid hit two bullseyes and narrowly missed D16... Actually, last saturday he finished 130, then he finished 108 for at least three times that day! and even missed 170 with his last dart. Things that many seasoned players wouldn't even try.
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One other consideration, for us amateurs, is what's next door.
With one dart in hand, 62 left, the majority will opt for T10.
But as you're learning and improving, it's certainly worth looking at the options from the point of view of a less accurate player (like me :-))
So, if we miss even the big number, what's next door?
I'll only consider the three triples that leave a "good" double on the next throw if you hit them:
Miss T10 or 10, you hit 6 or 15 (let's disregard their trebles for now - in fact they don't influence the results here). 6 leaves 56, which is a two darter next visit. 15 leaves 47, which is likewise a two-darter.
Miss T14 or 14, you hit 9 or 11. 9 leaves 53, 11 leaves 51. Both normal two-darters.
Miss T18 or 18, you hit 4 or 1. 4 leaves 58, a normal two-darter. But hit 1 and you leave 61 - NOT a simple two-darter.

OK, maybe I'm drilling down too much, but I suppose the one conclusion I can make from this is that 18s are a higher risk choice if you take into account the percentages for darts that go in the next-door number!

It's like when I have 15 left with three darts. Do I go for 7, 3, or 11? Personally I go for 11... but that, I fear, is another topic!
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(01-26-2020, 12:27 AM)can Wrote: T10 is good.  
Many out charts available; I've seen this one recommended.
https://ricksmith.ca/Darts/dartsouts.htm

Excellent link thank you! I agree as well, one dart left and 62 to go, I shoot T10 and hope it's enough pressure on my opponent to give me another turn
Darts: Harrows Cobalts 22g w/ Target Diamond points
           Target Daytona Fire GT03 24g
Board: Blade 5 - with Target Corona Lighting
Highest Checkout: 170 
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Treble 10
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Double 15  Big Grin
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I didn't read every reply so this may be repetitive. I hit doubles better on the lower 25% of the board (where the bed is kind of horizontal) so thats where I set up for. Thats for me. For you set up for whatever double you hit best. That what darts is all about. There are some proven techniques, but in the end, experiment and do what works for you. Everybody is different
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treble 10 for me.
in the hope theres enough pressure on the other person for me to get another shot
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Treble 10 or Treble 14 whichever I fancy. I like to finish with Double 16 or Double 10 a lot.
Current Dart in Use: Quantum Darts Paradox 17.5gm
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Can't agree enough with those who suggest Treble 10 or Treble 14. I think knowing YOUR game and what set up shots and what out shots you are most comfortable with makes the decision almost automatic. I know for me I'm going to the T10 for the last dart sitting on 62 because D16 is my personal favorite out. At worst I will get 2 darts at it next time. But T14 for D10 is ok too, especially if you are someone who prefers D20 as your out (because chances are you are comfortable with D10 as a secondary shot should you come inside on the 20).

Bottom line, know your out shot math, but also know your game. Knowing 1 without the other is pointless.
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(01-30-2020, 11:51 AM)Immiketurus Wrote: One other consideration, for us amateurs, is what's next door.
With one dart in hand, 62 left, the majority will opt for T10.
But as you're learning and improving, it's certainly worth looking at the options from the point of view of a less accurate player (like me :-))
So, if we miss even the big number, what's next door?
I'll only consider the three triples that leave a "good" double on the next throw if you hit them:
Miss T10 or 10, you hit 6 or 15 (let's disregard their trebles for now - in fact they don't influence the results here). 6 leaves 56, which is a two darter next visit. 15 leaves 47, which is likewise a two-darter.
Miss T14 or 14, you hit 9 or 11. 9 leaves 53, 11 leaves 51. Both normal two-darters.
Miss T18 or 18, you hit 4 or 1. 4 leaves 58, a normal two-darter. But hit 1 and you leave 61 - NOT a simple two-darter.

OK, maybe I'm drilling down too much, but I suppose the one conclusion I can make from this is that 18s are a higher risk choice if you take into account the percentages for darts that go in the next-door number!

It's like when I have 15 left with three darts. Do I go for 7, 3, or 11? Personally I go for 11... but that, I fear, is another topic!

This kind of thinking is just what I have found, but getting there through actual practice, makes all the difference.  I am not that great a player, but I find practicing the combo shots really helps me learn what to shoot at when I miss the initial target.  On 62 I find my dart often drops from the T10 to the  S15, I now don't miss a beat as I have done it so many times!

You know, the Nike thing!
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Another for the T-10 bed. Hit a single and your options open up for a S-12 to leave tops or S-20 to leave D-16.

I prefer the S-20 to leave D-16, but that's just me and some folks will argue you chance hitting the T-20 to bust whereas you go for the S-12 to leave tops and hit the T-12, that leaves you D-8 for the win-----and that is a very valid argument, but I still prefer the S-20 since I throw D-16 much better than tops if a S-12 is hit.
gumbo2176
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