When to Start looking at Doubles?
I am a new and very average Darts Player, though I must admit that I have watched and loved the game for many many years.

My son and I only play at home and we are looking at going to a Social Darts Club in the next few weeks. I know the perfect club as I did a sales display there a few months ago and yes they compete, but the social aspect is more the focal point, the people are super friendly and I think it's just what we need. Something competetive to learn in, with relaxtion and fun that would not be evident at a "super serious" comp.

We are very average, we throw an occasional 100, a very rare 140, we have never had a 180 and we struggle on doubling out due to accuracy and the very much needed lack of practise. My best out is about 46 using 3 darts, because i think i bummed up the first dart if i recall. Finishes from 60 and under are sometimes acievable, though probably with some stray darts in between Sad

The question is, when should i start looking at doubling out taking into account my skill levels. The pros are looking at finishing anywhere from 180 onwards, but is that realistic for me? If i have something like 140 to go, sure, i think of T20 T20 and D10 and thats sort of safe because i am aiming at a high scoring segment. But i am honest in my own mind and i know the chances of doing what would be "three perfect darts" for me is very small. Normally, i dont really start thinking about the outs until i am down to the 90' or 80's.

Just wondering if I can get some advice as to when to start focusing on the finishes as such. I guess even if you cant yet achieve them you should try for them and alter as you hit or miss. The other issue is remembering the bloody things! Damn thats hard.


So any advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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It does not harm, to know the finishing routes, even if you cant hit them in 3 darts...if you use 6 or 9 or 12 darts to finish the 100, at least you would know the best way...and so the best possible chance of at least throwing a dart at a double to win the leg.

What you are describing abouve with your plan to join a Social Darts Club sounds perfect to me. Its the best way to learn and to have some fun.
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It's neccessary to know all finishes from 60 downwards. I often see players thinking about what to do when they're on 45 etc. It's the basics. Part of these basics is to decide whether you prefer 32 or 40. There are situations when D12 or D18 are neccessary but many checkouts can end up on these two main doubles. If there is an easier way for your preferable double then choose that way. I mean, if you have this 45 you shouldn't think at the oche if you better try 5 or 13. You should've had this already decided. It sounds strange but many newcomers would choose 15...

The second level is to know all two darts finishes and it's also very important for you to be aware of what your score really is. At least from let's say 100. I often see players who have no idea what their score is and they still go for 20's when they're on 93... That's bad.

I myself focus more from around 350 - I usually say I prepare my doubles from 501 on :-) but that's just about the fact that I am aware of the possible bogeys. From 170 though I never throw without thinking.

I should point out here that you shouldn't be counting these scores too much. You should know all these outs without thinking. But it's something like the third level. From the starter you'll be fine with level one and soon after playing more with the level two :-) The rest will come naturally if you want it to come...
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I'd venture to say a good bit higher than 60. If you walk to the oche and have 123 or 119 left and you start throwing at the 20 first dart, you don't have a grasp of how to get out from there.

As a casual player, I want to know my outs from 170 down, and not just one way, but any way you can take some of these numbers out.

Take a 164 for example. The traditional way is T-20, T-18, Bull, but I prefer to try to hit 2 x T-19 for the Bull finish. That way you are only looking at one area of the board for your first 2 darts.

Or a 108 where many go T-20, S-16, D-16---------again, I like T-19, S-19, D-16

A lot of out shots are simply a choice of what you're comfortable with, and confident in hitting, but like already mentioned, know what you want, and need before heading to the oche to throw. Take 75 for example. I want to hit a T-17 to leave a D-12 shot with my next 2 darts, but if I hit a S-17, I already know I need a S-18 for one dart at D-20.

Bottom line is "LEARN YOUR OUTS" and the progression if your first dart is not what you really wanted to hit. Keep that flow going if possible.
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(01-08-2018, 08:09 PM)gumbo2176 Wrote: I'd venture to say a good bit higher than 60.   If you walk to the oche and have 123 or 119 left and you start throwing at the 20 first dart, you don't have a grasp of how to get out from there.  

As a casual player, I want to know my outs from 170 down, and not just one way, but any way you can take some of these numbers out.

Take a 164 for example.   The traditional way is T-20, T-18, Bull, but I prefer to try to hit 2 x T-19 for the Bull finish.  That way you are only looking at one area of the board for your first 2 darts.

Or a 108 where many go T-20, S-16, D-16---------again, I like T-19, S-19, D-16

A lot of out shots are simply a choice of what you're comfortable, and confident in hitting, but like already mentioned, know what you want, and need before heading to the oche to throw.    Take 75 for example.   I want to hit a T-17 to leave a D-12 shot with my next 2 darts, but if I hit a S-17, I already know I need a S-18 for one dart at D-20.

Bottom line is "LEARN YOUR OUTS" and the progression if your first dart is not what you really wanted to hit.  Keep that flow going if possible.

I see the point in everything you wrote above. I second that. I just don't think begginers should worry too much about the proper way for 123 etc.

I was a bit hesitating about whether to mention 60 or 80 or 100 as a starting point for looking at doubling. The higher, the better, of course. On the other hand I often see new players struggling on really small scores. If you understand how 60 works, it's easy then to understand how scores like 80, 100, 120....170...259...306...350 work.
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(01-08-2018, 10:40 PM)elevendarter Wrote: I see the point in everything you wrote above. I second that. I just don't think begginers should worry too much about the proper way for 123 etc.

I was a bit hesitating about whether to mention 60 or 80 or 100 as a starting point for looking at doubling. The higher, the better, of course. On the other hand I often see new players struggling on really small scores. If you understand how 60 works, it's easy then to understand how scores like 80, 100, 120....170...259...306...350 work.

I think the problem for a lot of new players is they see darts on TV or U-tube and see the pros pounding the 20 like there's no tomorrow.  Maybe their teammates are telling them to just hit as many 20's as possible to try to score as high as they can and that mentality carries over into their out shots without taking into consideration the options they should really be looking at.

It's hard for a beginner to think of taking out 79 by starting with a T-13 to leave D-20 or trying for a T-19 to leave D-11.  I've seen this very thing many, many times in our local league, and not just with new players.    I'm amazed at the people that have been playing for a few years that don't seem to have a clue about their options on outs.
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(01-08-2018, 10:54 PM)gumbo2176 Wrote:
(01-08-2018, 10:40 PM)elevendarter Wrote: I see the point in everything you wrote above. I second that. I just don't think begginers should worry too much about the proper way for 123 etc.

I was a bit hesitating about whether to mention 60 or 80 or 100 as a starting point for looking at doubling. The higher, the better, of course. On the other hand I often see new players struggling on really small scores. If you understand how 60 works, it's easy then to understand how scores like 80, 100, 120....170...259...306...350 work.

I think the problem for a lot of new players is they see darts on TV or U-tube and see the pros pounding the 20 like there's no tomorrow.  Maybe their teammates are telling them to just hit as many 20's as possible to try to score as high as they can and that mentality carries over into their out shots without taking into consideration the options they should really be looking at.

It's hard for a beginner to think of taking out 79 by starting with a T-13 to leave D-20 or trying for a T-19 to leave D-11.  I've seen this very thing many, many times in our local league, and not just with new players.    I'm amazed at the people that have been playing for a few years that don't seem to have a clue about their options on outs.

I've changed your post a bit so that it more reflects the reality :-) At least, you can find such players here where I live.

BTW, from the ways above the one starting on T19 is usually better way as it leaves an easy single for an easy double if you miss.
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(01-08-2018, 10:54 PM)gumbo2176 Wrote: I think the problem for a lot of new players is they see darts on TV or U-tube and see the pros pounding the 20 like there's no tomorrow.  Maybe their teammates are telling them to just hit as many 20's as possible to try to score as high as they can and that mentality carries over into their out shots without taking into consideration the options they should really be looking at.

It's hard for a beginner to think of taking out 79 by starting with a T-13 to leave D-20 or trying for a T-19 to leave D-11.  I've seen this very thing many, many times in our local league, and not just with new players.    I'm amazed at the people that have been playing for a few years that don't seem to have a clue about their options on outs.

I laugh every week at this, there's so many guys in my leagues that go, even 20's odd 19's and can't break anything down then left on bad doubles, it's taken me 3 seasons to get in my one teammates head about going 19's on 126 or 18's on 122 he's finally clued in
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(01-08-2018, 11:08 PM)Crusher17 Wrote: I laugh every week at this, there's so many guys in my leagues that go, even 20's odd 19's and can't break anything down then left on bad doubles, it's taken me 3 seasons to get in my one teammates head about going 19's on 126 or 18's on 122 he's finally clued in

I know it's helped my game as far as setting up and throwing for outs just from watching the pros for so many years on the PDC tour.    Those guys almost never make a mistake except for the occasional miss of the fat single dart, like S-19 on 59 and they slip into the 7 or 3 and need to use another dart to get to the out shot.

Then you had Phil Taylor who left bogies more times than real chances at a high out shot, but those are not the norm for most of the professional players.

Out shooting is one of the things I like about watching guys like MVG and Michael Smith because of their pacing where they always know what is to be the next dart and flow from one area of the board to the next so fluidly.
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Interesting how there can be such diverse opinions Smile

The one common point is start thinking as soon as possible and try and learn your outs, in particular, the outs that you feel most comfy with.

I guess I didn't get the "magic answer" that I was looking for, but I did get good advice.

Thanks guys, I appreciate it Smile
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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(01-09-2018, 01:20 AM)Snooks Wrote: Interesting how there can be such diverse opinions Smile

The one common point is start thinking as soon as possible and try and learn your outs, in particular, the outs that you feel most comfy with.

I guess I didn't get the "magic answer" that I was looking for, but I did get good advice.

Thanks guys, I appreciate it Smile

Don't think the opinions are all that diverse Snooks, just some typical Nutz debate over the priority of the finish "range" based on comfort level.  And some useful anecdotal examples. The short answer, you need to learn your out shots!

Have fun with it, because when it works, it's magic!  :thumbup:

cheers...
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(01-08-2018, 08:09 PM)gumbo2176 Wrote: I'd venture to say a good bit higher than 60.

Take a 164 for example. The traditional way is T-20, T-18, Bull, but I prefer to try to hit 2 x T-19 for the Bull finish. That way you are only looking at one area of the board for your first 2 darts.

Or a 108 where many go T-20, S-16, D-16---------again, I like T-19, S-19, D-16

Take 75 for example. I want to hit a T-17 to leave a D-12 shot with my next 2 darts, but if I hit a S-17, I already know I need a S-18 for one dart at D-20.

Bottom line is "LEARN YOUR OUTS" and the progression if your first dart is not what you really wanted to hit. Keep that flow going if possible.

As a beginner in 501, I find the math intimidating. Not only that, but when you ask for advice you get scenarios like the above examples.
In reality, NONE of the out examples above are realistic for a beginner. At 108, yeah T20, S16, D20 is possible, but not likely at all. More likely (for me and others of my ilk) is try for 3 S20's for a 60, leaving 48 for the next throw. And... in reality you don't even get the 60, but S20, S5, S1 for the dreaded 26, leaving 82, then repeat the above leaving a 56.
That's the world us scrubs live in, the high checkout is a pipe dream, and you're better off planning on failure than success because the reality is failure is much more likely than success, until you practice more and get better of course!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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(01-09-2018, 04:05 AM)SpoonyG Wrote: As a beginner in 501, I find the math intimidating. Not only that, but when you ask for advice you get scenarios like the above examples.
In reality, NONE of the out examples above are realistic for a beginner. At 108, yeah T20, S16, D20 is possible, but not likely at all. More likely (for me and others of my ilk) is try for 3 S20's for a 60, leaving 48 for the next throw. And... in reality  you don't even get the 60, but S20, S5, S1 for the dreaded 26, leaving 82, then repeat the above leaving a 56.
That's the world us scrubs live in, the high checkout is a pipe dream, and you're better off planning on failure than success because that's the reality, until you practice more and get better of course!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Maybe you had a typo when you mentioned the 108 checkout with T-20, S-16, D-20 instead of D-16.

I understand what you are saying and your scenario of not coming close to those numbers when checking out are very valid, but it surely doesn't hurt to know how to take those bigger numbers out.   If, and when the time comes that your game gets to that level, you'll already know for a long time how to properly take the numbers out and by then it may be second nature.

I preach this to newer players and they appreciate the advice as it opens their eyes to possibilities they usually don't think of.

And believe me, I don't hit these checkouts with any real frequency, but the times my darts do go right and I hit the first 2 trebles of a high out, I know where the 3rd dart needs to be and I'm not stepping back off the oche wondering what I need.  That keeps things fluid and I find the more fluid you throw, the more consistent you can become.
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(01-09-2018, 04:18 AM)gumbo2176 Wrote:
(01-09-2018, 04:05 AM)SpoonyG Wrote: As a beginner in 501, I find the math intimidating. Not only that, but when you ask for advice you get scenarios like the above examples.
In reality, NONE of the out examples above are realistic for a beginner. At 108, yeah T20, S16, D20 is possible, but not likely at all. More likely (for me and others of my ilk) is try for 3 S20's for a 60, leaving 48 for the next throw. And... in reality  you don't even get the 60, but S20, S5, S1 for the dreaded 26, leaving 82, then repeat the above leaving a 56.
That's the world us scrubs live in, the high checkout is a pipe dream, and you're better off planning on failure than success because that's the reality, until you practice more and get better of course!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Maybe you had a typo when you mentioned the 108 checkout with T-20, S-16, D-20 instead of D-16.

I understand what you are saying and your scenario of not coming close to those numbers when checking out are very valid, but it surely doesn't hurt to know how to take those bigger numbers out.   If, and when the time comes that your game gets to that level, you'll already know for a long time how to properly take the numbers out and by then it may be second nature.

I preach this to newer players and they appreciate the advice as it opens their eyes to possibilities they usually don't think of.

And believe me, I don't hit these checkouts with any real frequency, but the times my darts do go right and I hit the first 2 trebles of a high out, I know where the 3rd dart needs to be and I'm not stepping back off the oche wondering what I need.  That keeps things fluid and I find the more fluid you throw, the more consistent you can become.

Very well said, and that's as good advice as you're likely to get  Exclamation

cheers...
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I really like practising outshots almost to the detriment of my scoring but regardless, if you've been playing for years then there is no excuse for not knowing how to work an out. I've now given up trying to tell people the % outshots but instead smile quietly when playing people who don't know their outshots, because I can generally steal legs/sets/matches from them!

I am a big fan of "building up" your knowledge of outs. First up is knowing the outs from 3-60. Then 60-100, then 100-140, and generally by the time you've hit the 100-140 range you're up to knowing all of them. What I do is dedicate practise sessions just for outs, so say have a practise session figuring out how you would tackle, e.g. 41-50 and give yourself 6-9 darts to finish each number. Next session do 51-60 or repeat 41-50until you feel confident. Once you're happy then go up from there. Or down, I give myself 3 darts @ all the odd numbers from 3-39 and it's a lot harder than it looks!

IMO the 2 dart outs (or from 100 down) is my "meat and potatoes", the 100+ outs are "simply" (hah!) hitting another treble on top of that. What I find critical is knowing the numbers between 61-100 where your finishing route changes if you have 2 or 3 darts in hand and that only comes by practising and thinking and practising some more. My staple routines consist of 6 darts @ a block of 10 numbers between 61-100 and 3 darts at 41-50 or 51-60.

I can understand the value of, e.g. throwing at 19s on 126 etc but if you're just learning the outs I think the 100+ range is less important than the 3-100 range. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and go the "correct" way (e.g. 19s on 126!) when you are on that number but if you're a beginner don't beat yourself up if you don't.
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