Buying Darts - You guys don't know how good you have it !
(12-27-2017, 02:06 PM)Snooks Wrote:
(12-08-2017, 12:29 AM)Fizban Wrote: Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Big Grin Angel

Where you stated

Quote:I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
You need to keep in mind that the business buying from the UK would have to pay import fees, + GST etc on top of the prices and where you buy 6 sets of flights for example, they probably have to buy 30-50 sets of the flights and keep multiple ranges of flights, shafts etc, so it is quite a lot of sometimes slow selling items to keep tied up in stock and stock = cash tied up.

Darts is a very small market out here, you talk like you know what you are doing and with due respect, you may well have that experience. But if that is the case, why is there only a very small number of dedicated dart shops in Australia? I would guess in say probably under 5 DEDICATED shops..... the rest are general shops that have some darting products. If you have that experience and skill I just wonder why no one else has, which leads me to believe that there is more to the issue than you know.

I used to own dartshop.com(au) up until 2 years ago, i did so from roughly 2002. I focused on Winmau because they were a very good brand and one that I could get easily. Now....everyone including the cornerstore sells Winmau, prices on ebay equate to costs plus around $5 profit per set. It just isn't worth touching them at all.

Dealers for certain LEADING brands and i can name 4-5, are very hard to deal with out here. I wont begin an issue by naming them, but we could not buy WHOLESALE out here, even 20% of the range the brand had on sale in the UK. They import very few of the lines that are available in the UK.

After 16 years I now deal with one brand and one brand only, that being Datadart and we are beginning to make roads in wholesaling out here. It takes time, because although Datadart have been heard of, because the brand has rarely been seen out here in Australia, they are harder to market. Having said that, we are enjoying great feedback and reviews so over time, we will succeed and we are doing so at very competitive prices.

Well i have probably ruffled enough feathers so i will make one more statement and it may surprise you. The Dart Shop I mentioned I owned was turning over roughly $280K per annum and of that, $200K would be to the very social player and NOT serious competition players. Mom & dad would buy a decent dartboard for at home, or a dartboard package, etc.....the comp players always wanted to haggle about paying 40c more for a set of flights than in the UK and are constantly looking to save every cent and change shops the minute they can save 10c. There is little loyalty. They are in fact their own worst enemy because the lack of loyalty makes it very hard for a dedicated Dart Shop to survive.

My Dad taught me many things and one of them was always spot on. "Why work hard and not make money?" I can do nothing and go bust so no sense working hard and going bust. The financial exposure of holding stock out here is very high.

This situation will not change much until people buying sets overseas are forced to pay the same import fees, the GST etc that the small importers and dart shops have to pay....because until then, yes, you can probably buy them from the UK 20% less than we get them from the wholesalers here.

Take my word on this or speak to some of the people that operate dart shops out here. I could post some wholesale price lists from leading Brands to substantiate my claims, and i could do so if any of these major companies post and wish to challenge my honesty, or wish me to verify my claims. But what am i going to achieve?

It is a very difficult market. Sad
I don't doubt that its a very difficult market.
I have worked in import/export over the last 25 years so I DO understand the workings of duty and tax. My point is not to criticize the retailers but question the validity of the prices charged and the margins being extracted from the public.
Retail customers aren't stupid, ask Gerry Harvey. He wanted GST charged on imports to protect his margins.
Retail has changed.
The margins aren't there anymore.
Online stores are able to pass on cost reductions as lower prices. It's a case of be competitive or become irrelevant.

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League Darts: 
Voks Tracer One 21g, Target Pro Grip Short shafts, Standard Black Mission Flights.
BOARD: Winmau Blade 5 Dual Core

2019 Formal 180s - 12
2019 Best Leg played - 15 darts
2019 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142, 120




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All I can add to this discussion is "thank god for the internet".

I love shopping for good prices and I always start on my home turf. It's just easier with shipping and yes I pay for it.
I shop A-Z and they are doing a great job in the USofA with what they have to compete against being further away from the manufacturers.
Then I start moving around the world to see what's out there and how insane the prices are and how much lower I can go.
I'll always go with Madhouse first. It's just a game we all play trying to beat the competition and hoping we don't bust out.

To me lucky is being able to drive across town and buy darts and trying them out first. Now, that's lucky. I'm like 10 hours from A-Z and across 2 mountain passes.
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Roger that on USA prices Spence!
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I guess that irregardless of what you are buying,(Darts, cameras, fishing tackle) you will always pay more if you buy in store, rather than online.

Online is the way of the future, there is reduced costs for the seller and this normally converts to it being cheaper online, but having said that, there is almost no real customer service, you can't touch, smell or feel your product and in 99% of the cases you cannot get advice or comparison information from the "Shop Owner".

If you are lucky enough to be able to visit a local shop selling the products you wish, then be prepared to pay a bit more than you would online but you reap the benefits of good old fashioned service and you can touch smell and feel the products before buying. But support him and be as loyal as possible, don't leave him and buy elsewhere to save 40p on some shafts, or $3 on a set of arrows, we need more local shops offering great service. We need "Small Business" not these massive Amazon Conglomerates.
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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(12-29-2017, 05:32 AM)Snooks Wrote: I guess that irregardless of what you are buying,(Darts, cameras, fishing tackle) you will always pay more if you buy in store, rather than online.

Online is the way of the future, there is reduced costs for the seller and this normally converts to it being cheaper online, but having said that, there is almost no real customer service, you can't touch, smell or feel your product and in 99% of the cases you cannot get advice or comparison information from the "Shop Owner".

If you are lucky enough to be able to visit a local shop selling the products you wish, then be prepared to pay a bit more than you would online but you reap the benefits of good old fashioned service and you can touch smell and feel the products before buying. But support him and be as loyal as possible, don't leave him and buy elsewhere to save 40p on some shafts, or $3 on a set of arrows, we need more local shops offering great service. We need "Small Business" not these massive Amazon Conglomerates.
I agree we need small business, but, and its a BIG BUT, small business needs to realise that consumers have a breaking point. In the era of technology retailers can't continue to "stick it to the customer" because they can make a quick quid. Big retailers are suffering the same ill. They react differently - margins drop, staff get dumped. Margins are too thick guys I don't care what you say. The days of 30% + margins are gone, why do you think online store got a look in in the first place.
They call that competition and customers should benefit from it, not pay for it !

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
League Darts: 
Voks Tracer One 21g, Target Pro Grip Short shafts, Standard Black Mission Flights.
BOARD: Winmau Blade 5 Dual Core

2019 Formal 180s - 12
2019 Best Leg played - 15 darts
2019 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142, 120




Reply
Quote:I agree we need small business, but, and its a BIG BUT, small business needs to realise that consumers have a breaking point. In the era of technology retailers can't continue to "stick it to the customer" because they can make a quick quid. Big retailers are suffering the same ill. They react differently - margins drop, staff get dumped. Margins are too thick guys I don't care what you say. The days of 30% + margins are gone, why do you think online store got a look in in the first place.

They call that competition and customers should benefit from it, not pay for it !

If you cant make 30% on ANY product, then there is no way in hell you can make money. None at all. You have to tie your money up for ages in stock, pay for it before it comes and then, if you make under 30% you have no chance of meeting your costs.

The major issue with online selling stores is that they do not have the running costs of Bricks & Motar Stores. In fact..... I would say that almost all the online shops selling darts in Australia are dropshipping. I can only really see 2-3 at the most, that aren't.

Just to explain in case anyone doesn't understand the term, A dropshipper is an online store that sells items that they do not hold on hand. The have an agreement with "Joe Blow Darts". They build a website and operate as a shop but have no physical location. Mom wants to buy Dad a set of Darts so she buys a set of darts from Joe Blow. Joe Blow contacts his supplier, advises the name, address and details of the purchase. The supplier then sends the item to the buyer and bills the Joe Blow Dart Shop.

So....
  • Joe Blow sold an item he did not have on hand, he tied up no cash, he invested nothing money wise.
  • Joe Blow comes out ahead if he only makes the cost of his email to the supplier. He sold something he didnt have to invest cash into so anything above cost price is profit.
  • Joe Blow can add on 2 pound to the cost price and he hs ahead.
  • A physical shop has to add on the purchase cost, financing for the money they have tied up in the 20k pounds cash that the stock cost them, wages, rent and everything else.
  • Online stores dont have issues with GST, VAT or import fees because that is on the customers own back and can be a major issue when they buy an expensive product.
It is simply common sense that a true shop cannot compete price wise against an online retailer who dropships. But the true shop gives better service, can assist clients with onhand experience, the true shop you can touch, smell or taste the product and in most cases the online dropshipper has probably never even seen or touched the item you are buying.

We could go around in circles for posts and posts, and acheive nothing. Probably best that we agree to disagree as we each have different opinions but i can assure you, if you think that ANY business can survive making less than 30% markup on any product, than you are very sadly mistaken.

Support your local physical dealer, they have the experience, the knowledge and can assist far better than any online shop.....just be prepared to pay a bit more for the service. It is money well spent.
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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(11-08-2017, 05:38 AM)Crusher17 Wrote: Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
Crusher your independently wealthy so stop complaining- anyone who can afford to heat their home in -11 weather has to have money bahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Tongue Big Grin
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(12-30-2017, 06:30 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(11-08-2017, 05:38 AM)Crusher17 Wrote: Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
Crusher your independently wealthy so stop complaining- anyone who can afford to heat their home in -11 weather has to have money bahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  Tongue  Big Grin

I wish -11 try -20's lol, and i wasn't complaining stating facts
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(12-30-2017, 06:33 PM)Crusher17 Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:30 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(11-08-2017, 05:38 AM)Crusher17 Wrote: Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
Crusher your independently wealthy so stop complaining- anyone who can afford to heat their home in -11 weather has to have money bahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  Tongue  Big Grin

I wish -11 try -20's lol, and i wasn't complaining stating facts


Got ya -


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(12-30-2017, 06:35 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:33 PM)Crusher17 Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:30 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(11-08-2017, 05:38 AM)Crusher17 Wrote: Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
Crusher your independently wealthy so stop complaining- anyone who can afford to heat their home in -11 weather has to have money bahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  Tongue  Big Grin

I wish -11 try -20's lol, and i wasn't complaining stating facts


Got ya -


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This is why i buy most of my sets during the summer not paying for heating oil lol
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(12-30-2017, 06:40 PM)Crusher17 Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:35 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:33 PM)Crusher17 Wrote:
(12-30-2017, 06:30 PM)*Saber* Wrote:
(11-08-2017, 05:38 AM)Crusher17 Wrote: Really no one has it good, UK people have to pay VAT yes they get stuff quicker but it cost them more, people in the UE pay VAT and get it in a few more days ( correct me if i'm wrong here ), the rest of the world pay less and have to wait longer, which i will gladly do for paying a 3rd of the price it would cost me to buy in Canada or depending on the exchange rate from the US, we all b*tch and chew about the mail but i will still wait 3 weeks to get 3 set for the price of one here
Crusher your independently wealthy so stop complaining- anyone who can afford to heat their home in -11 weather has to have money bahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  Tongue  Big Grin

I wish -11 try -20's lol, and i wasn't complaining stating facts


Got ya -


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This is why i buy most of my sets during the summer not paying for heating oil lol


Crush you have your priorities in line


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Well said Crusher! Big Grin
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You can't beat the internet for price , I can buy three quality sets of darts from the U.K for
what I'd pay in a darts store here in NY for , so thats what I do , I also like Shots website for accessories.
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Amazon US has ONE80 darts for $30 a set and free postage with prime.
p[Image: GEpKdcf.png] 
Current Board 
ONE80 Gladiator 3 with Corona Surround and Unicorn number ring
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Modified Unicorn Striker with RD medium sparkle stems, hardcore  charcoal flights and Target titanium stem rings   

Playing 40 years on and off and still barely average                 

                                                          
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Here in the USA Amazon wanted $61.90 + 4.95 shipping for RD Snakebite 3s. I ended up ordering them directly from Red Dragon cost me about $42 total shipped.
180's (2019) = 67
Highest checkout = 139
Current match darts - Unicorn JW Phase 1 Purist 22g
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