Buying Darts - You guys don't know how good you have it !
My favorite example of U.S. retail-based screwing of dart players is comparing Pure Shot Arsonist from Dart Brokers to Tommy's Winners at Pure Darts. These are the same darts, of course. We could use any of the weights for comparison - I've opted to use one of the sets I actually have, the 26g model (not that anyone cares, but I also have a set of the 25s). The links above show the entire range so that you can see they're all the same, the links below compare the 26s.

Pure Shot Arsonist: $65.20, BARRELS ONLY, "on sale" from $81.50.

Tommy's Winners: $14.04, WITH STEMS, FLIGHTS AND A BAR WALLET. 

So for the cost of one barrels-only set from Dart Brokers, you could get four sets, 12 stems, 12 flights and four bar wallets from Pure and still have enough left over to cover the shipping! With Dart Brokers, not only is the price a raging case of retail sodomy, but free shipping doesn't start until you hit $75!

Look, I know markup is unavoidable, these USA shops couldn't stay in business selling at cost, but THIS? 

Why can't we produce PDC players? Probably because the country would rather play cricket than 501. But why do so few per capita own a tungsten set and play with it regularly? Because you have to mortgage your (expletive deleted) house to buy one. When I go into bars to throw, over half the folks who bring their own sets use brass or those nickel silver sets (I've seen a surprising number of Bristow Silver Arrows), which over here usually still costs more than one set of Tommy's Winners would. 

At least the rare store like A-Z tries. You can get a set of Paul Nicholsons for $46, which isn't bad and comes with free shipping because it crosses their $45 threshold for free shipping. That's maybe ten bucks over what DC charges, and if you pay for speed shipping it's going to cost you $46 total anyway. Or you can get a set of one of Pure's least expensive 90% tungsten darts for $65.20 - again, "on sale" from $81.50 - from Dart Brokers. 

Also, if you scroll down from the first Dart Brokers link I posted, you'll see "Pure Shot Lethal Weapon" - those are Nodor 600 Series (Red Dragon calls them Flightmasters, A180 calls them Nodor Glidemasters, DC calls them Designa Crusaders, you've all seen them, most of you have probably had a set, I know I do, they're 80% and 12-14 quid each even WITH VAT in the UK) for that same "bargain" price of $65.20.

"Buy American?" Nope, not in this case. It's one thing to support the stateside economy, it's another to take a red-hot poker up the backside from people just drooling at the thought of ripping you off. Dart Brokers is the only store that I've ever seen carry Los Angeles Rams flights, but I hate that ripoff joint so much I wouldn't order any if they were 50 cents a set (and they weren't, they were $3.00 apiece, as one would expect from them).

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(11-08-2017, 01:36 AM)joeriw96 Wrote: Not only in Australia mate, even in the Netherlands right across the pond some shops are asking ridiculous prices for some darts. Unicorn, Winmau and Harrows seem to be affected the most. For example a set of Unicorn Supertrue's are €62 at DC and one of the biggest Dutch shops is asking €110 for them?!?

 Same for France as well the few outlets have very limited stock & horrendous prices
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Amen to that Fizban. Great rant too. Keep them coming Smile.

UK all the way for me too. It's no contest, especially when the Dollar is strong against the Pound. I still support my local bricks and mortar darts/billiards store as I'd hate to see them fold (I buy bugger all from them but it still equates to me being a good customer and they give me 20% off).

Aussie online stores can't/choose not to compete.
[Image: i6coee.jpg]
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Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Big Grin Angel
[Image: 2a8nmeg.jpg]

League Darts: 
Dynasty "Hot Fuzz" 25g with Short Pro Grip Shafts - Std Flights
BOARD: Winmau Blade 5 Dual Core

2019 Formal 180s - 8
2019 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142




Reply
(12-08-2017, 12:29 AM)Fizban Wrote: Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Big Grin Angel

Where you stated

Quote:I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
You need to keep in mind that the business buying from the UK would have to pay import fees, + GST etc on top of the prices and where you buy 6 sets of flights for example, they probably have to buy 30-50 sets of the flights and keep multiple ranges of flights, shafts etc, so it is quite a lot of sometimes slow selling items to keep tied up in stock and stock = cash tied up.

Darts is a very small market out here, you talk like you know what you are doing and with due respect, you may well have that experience. But if that is the case, why is there only a very small number of dedicated dart shops in Australia? I would guess in say probably under 5 DEDICATED shops..... the rest are general shops that have some darting products. If you have that experience and skill I just wonder why no one else has, which leads me to believe that there is more to the issue than you know.

I used to own dartshop.com(au) up until 2 years ago, i did so from roughly 2002. I focused on Winmau because they were a very good brand and one that I could get easily. Now....everyone including the cornerstore sells Winmau, prices on ebay equate to costs plus around $5 profit per set. It just isn't worth touching them at all.

Dealers for certain LEADING brands and i can name 4-5, are very hard to deal with out here. I wont begin an issue by naming them, but we could not buy WHOLESALE out here, even 20% of the range the brand had on sale in the UK. They import very few of the lines that are available in the UK.

After 16 years I now deal with one brand and one brand only, that being Datadart and we are beginning to make roads in wholesaling out here. It takes time, because although Datadart have been heard of, because the brand has rarely been seen out here in Australia, they are harder to market. Having said that, we are enjoying great feedback and reviews so over time, we will succeed and we are doing so at very competitive prices.

Well i have probably ruffled enough feathers so i will make one more statement and it may surprise you. The Dart Shop I mentioned I owned was turning over roughly $280K per annum and of that, $200K would be to the very social player and NOT serious competition players. Mom & dad would buy a decent dartboard for at home, or a dartboard package, etc.....the comp players always wanted to haggle about paying 40c more for a set of flights than in the UK and are constantly looking to save every cent and change shops the minute they can save 10c. There is little loyalty. They are in fact their own worst enemy because the lack of loyalty makes it very hard for a dedicated Dart Shop to survive.

My Dad taught me many things and one of them was always spot on. "Why work hard and not make money?" I can do nothing and go bust so no sense working hard and going bust. The financial exposure of holding stock out here is very high.

This situation will not change much until people buying sets overseas are forced to pay the same import fees, the GST etc that the small importers and dart shops have to pay....because until then, yes, you can probably buy them from the UK 20% less than we get them from the wholesalers here.

Take my word on this or speak to some of the people that operate dart shops out here. I could post some wholesale price lists from leading Brands to substantiate my claims, and i could do so if any of these major companies post and wish to challenge my honesty, or wish me to verify my claims. But what am i going to achieve?

It is a very difficult market. Sad
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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(12-27-2017, 02:06 PM)Snooks Wrote:
(12-08-2017, 12:29 AM)Fizban Wrote: Thanks everyone, for your support on this topic.
I have to admit that I have become obsessive compulsive about the range and styles of really great product available.
I cite the recently released RVB95 range.
In Australia these are being sold for "Dart Shops" for between $150 and $180.
My wife bought me a set for my birthday from DC that cost under $100 (favorable exchange rate). even with postage they were a steal.
I could do import 101 at this point or even Sales pricing for beginners (my jobs for the last 20 plus years), make a margin and still be cheaper than most of the tossers down here.
We are being seen to in the name of market based pricing FFS.
Market based pricing = what the average person would comfortably pay for your product.
All the greedy bastards here have done is pumped the prices up and made the sport less affordable for those that play it.
Even the Wholesalers have this disjointed view of how much margin they can make.
I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
God I did the modeling for this in 1992 when I worked for a forklift company.
They called it World Pricing. we rolled it out and still made a healthy living.
Retail here has no clue, most of the dart shops are on line so have little over heads.
Distributors for Dart brands are trying to shape the market but are just stuffing the market up.
No disrespect intended to Tony David, but, he was world champion in 2002. Its 2017 now, the Power is retiring after a career that went for ever. Here we try to sell Tony Davis Darts that give the impression he is a going concern. Hello ! that was 15years ago ! we have a new generation of Champions emerging on the world scene. Australian players like Whitlock and Kyle Anderson are the relevant names. Darts is a sport of the people and Dart suppliers are making it too expensive to play. Thank goodness for the cultural roots we have with Merry England.
Oh and just for the record Fizban is of German heritage, not a Pom !! Big Grin Angel

Where you stated

Quote:I am not sure on the distribution model that they use, but, if I can land a small parcel for personal use and still come out 35% - 40% lower than retail, then using the buying power of a larger group with a reduced margin model, similar pricing at retail should be close to that in the UK.
You need to keep in mind that the business buying from the UK would have to pay import fees, + GST etc on top of the prices and where you buy 6 sets of flights for example, they probably have to buy 30-50 sets of the flights and keep multiple ranges of flights, shafts etc, so it is quite a lot of sometimes slow selling items to keep tied up in stock and stock = cash tied up.

Darts is a very small market out here, you talk like you know what you are doing and with due respect, you may well have that experience. But if that is the case, why is there only a very small number of dedicated dart shops in Australia? I would guess in say probably under 5 DEDICATED shops..... the rest are general shops that have some darting products. If you have that experience and skill I just wonder why no one else has, which leads me to believe that there is more to the issue than you know.

I used to own dartshop.com(au) up until 2 years ago, i did so from roughly 2002. I focused on Winmau because they were a very good brand and one that I could get easily. Now....everyone including the cornerstore sells Winmau, prices on ebay equate to costs plus around $5 profit per set. It just isn't worth touching them at all.

Dealers for certain LEADING brands and i can name 4-5, are very hard to deal with out here. I wont begin an issue by naming them, but we could not buy WHOLESALE out here, even 20% of the range the brand had on sale in the UK. They import very few of the lines that are available in the UK.

After 16 years I now deal with one brand and one brand only, that being Datadart and we are beginning to make roads in wholesaling out here. It takes time, because although Datadart have been heard of, because the brand has rarely been seen out here in Australia, they are harder to market. Having said that, we are enjoying great feedback and reviews so over time, we will succeed and we are doing so at very competitive prices.

Well i have probably ruffled enough feathers so i will make one more statement and it may surprise you. The Dart Shop I mentioned I owned was turning over roughly $280K per annum and of that, $200K would be to the very social player and NOT serious competition players. Mom & dad would buy a decent dartboard for at home, or a dartboard package, etc.....the comp players always wanted to haggle about paying 40c more for a set of flights than in the UK and are constantly looking to save every cent and change shops the minute they can save 10c. There is little loyalty. They are in fact their own worst enemy because the lack of loyalty makes it very hard for a dedicated Dart Shop to survive.

My Dad taught me many things and one of them was always spot on. "Why work hard and not make money?" I can do nothing and go bust so no sense working hard and going bust. The financial exposure of holding stock out here is very high.

This situation will not change much until people buying sets overseas are forced to pay the same import fees, the GST etc that the small importers and dart shops have to pay....because until then, yes, you can probably buy them from the UK 20% less than we get them from the wholesalers here.

Take my word on this or speak to some of the people that operate dart shops out here. I could post some wholesale price lists from leading Brands to substantiate my claims, and i could do so if any of these major companies post and wish to challenge my honesty, or wish me to verify my claims. But what am i going to achieve?

It is a very difficult market. Sad
I don't doubt that its a very difficult market.
I have worked in import/export over the last 25 years so I DO understand the workings of duty and tax. My point is not to criticize the retailers but question the validity of the prices charged and the margins being extracted from the public.
Retail customers aren't stupid, ask Gerry Harvey. He wanted GST charged on imports to protect his margins.
Retail has changed.
The margins aren't there anymore.
Online stores are able to pass on cost reductions as lower prices. It's a case of be competitive or become irrelevant.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
[Image: 2a8nmeg.jpg]

League Darts: 
Dynasty "Hot Fuzz" 25g with Short Pro Grip Shafts - Std Flights
BOARD: Winmau Blade 5 Dual Core

2019 Formal 180s - 8
2019 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142




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All I can add to this discussion is "thank god for the internet".

I love shopping for good prices and I always start on my home turf. It's just easier with shipping and yes I pay for it.
I shop A-Z and they are doing a great job in the USofA with what they have to compete against being further away from the manufacturers.
Then I start moving around the world to see what's out there and how insane the prices are and how much lower I can go.
I'll always go with Madhouse first. It's just a game we all play trying to beat the competition and hoping we don't bust out.

To me lucky is being able to drive across town and buy darts and trying them out first. Now, that's lucky. I'm like 10 hours from A-Z and across 2 mountain passes.
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Roger that on USA prices Spence!
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I guess that irregardless of what you are buying,(Darts, cameras, fishing tackle) you will always pay more if you buy in store, rather than online.

Online is the way of the future, there is reduced costs for the seller and this normally converts to it being cheaper online, but having said that, there is almost no real customer service, you can't touch, smell or feel your product and in 99% of the cases you cannot get advice or comparison information from the "Shop Owner".

If you are lucky enough to be able to visit a local shop selling the products you wish, then be prepared to pay a bit more than you would online but you reap the benefits of good old fashioned service and you can touch smell and feel the products before buying. But support him and be as loyal as possible, don't leave him and buy elsewhere to save 40p on some shafts, or $3 on a set of arrows, we need more local shops offering great service. We need "Small Business" not these massive Amazon Conglomerates.
Datadart Orion 25gms - Med Pro Grip Shafts - Ten X Flights




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(12-29-2017, 05:32 AM)Snooks Wrote: I guess that irregardless of what you are buying,(Darts, cameras, fishing tackle) you will always pay more if you buy in store, rather than online.

Online is the way of the future, there is reduced costs for the seller and this normally converts to it being cheaper online, but having said that, there is almost no real customer service, you can't touch, smell or feel your product and in 99% of the cases you cannot get advice or comparison information from the "Shop Owner".

If you are lucky enough to be able to visit a local shop selling the products you wish, then be prepared to pay a bit more than you would online but you reap the benefits of good old fashioned service and you can touch smell and feel the products before buying. But support him and be as loyal as possible, don't leave him and buy elsewhere to save 40p on some shafts, or $3 on a set of arrows, we need more local shops offering great service. We need "Small Business" not these massive Amazon Conglomerates.
I agree we need small business, but, and its a BIG BUT, small business needs to realise that consumers have a breaking point. In the era of technology retailers can't continue to "stick it to the customer" because they can make a quick quid. Big retailers are suffering the same ill. They react differently - margins drop, staff get dumped. Margins are too thick guys I don't care what you say. The days of 30% + margins are gone, why do you think online store got a look in in the first place.
They call that competition and customers should benefit from it, not pay for it !

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
[Image: 2a8nmeg.jpg]

League Darts: 
Dynasty "Hot Fuzz" 25g with Short Pro Grip Shafts - Std Flights
BOARD: Winmau Blade 5 Dual Core

2019 Formal 180s - 8
2019 Practice 180s - don't want talk about them
               
Best Ever Finish - 170, 160, 144, 142




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